Is Sam Harris Really Anti-Spiritual?

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

it's very shallow mainstreamy Buddhism.

It's not even that. In his interview with Ruper Spira, he claimed that 1st person experience ("introspection") cannot tell you anything about how the universe works 

[Whatever]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

All opinions, thoughts and beliefs are similar in the sense that they're spoken, but not in what they're referring to (either experience or conjecture). There does exist absolutes in life, and opinions can be based on absolutes, just like opinions can be based on the denial of absolutes. "Existence exists" is one such absolute, and it's directly tied to the absoluteness of non-duality. It's just that some people have mystical experiences and some do not. Does that mean that some people's experiences are valid and some are not? Not at all. This is exactly why non-dualists are so adamant about saying "you need to have the experience for yourself", because it's indeed only your experience that is valid.

I just disagree just because one experiences something mystical that seems absolute that he stating it as absolute is free from dogma. Perversion happens.

 

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is that supposed to be a correction?

Yep. Not sure if for you tho. But lets say reality is a body. You are nose, leo is pinky toe and im an asshole. Asshole is not a nose. You are not Leo (despite of thats word by word what he says). So yes correction to that. 

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The mystic makes the distinction between experience and conjecture. The religious fundamentalist doesn't. The mystic will agree that all conjecture must be approached with humility. However, what cannot be approached with mere humility is the baseline fact of one's own existence; the fact that existence exists for itself, by itself, not separate from itself. To be in denial of this fact is also to fail to differentiate between experience and conjecture.

Mystic also makes absolute statements on experiences he might highly pervert, especially if he gets these experiences via psychedelics.

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm just trying to point you to your own experience. The words are besides the point. Sit down, close your eyes and try to notice if you can experience "cheese" and "milk" as something else than just a thought.

Im not a stranger to meditation (or psychedelics) thats your assumption. And you arent pointing to my experience, just trying to place yourself into weird authority position. I did bunch of 5meo and other stuff 8 yesrs ago. Been meditating anf retreating since too. Just came to see things differently as I gained nuance. 

[Carl-Richard]

11 minutes ago, Whatever said:

I did bunch of 5meo and other stuff 8 yesrs ago. Been meditating anf retreating since too. Just came to see things differently as I gained nuance. 

Ok I'm not going to preach to somebody who it has obviously not worked for.

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's not even that. In his interview with Ruper Spira, he claimed that 1st person experience ("introspection") cannot tell you anything about how the universe works 

A lot of Western Buddhism is so watered down that it's compatible with scientific materialism and doesn't do any serious deconstruction of that paradigm.

That is precisely why it's so popular in the West. It allows the ego-mind to maintain its fundamental grip on reality while cosplaying as a spiritual or woke person.

But the truth is you ain't woke unless you realize all of reality is just your dream -- especially stuff like science and even Buddhism. All of Buddhism is your dream. This is the thing Sam Harris fundamentally doesn't get. Mediation and no-self isn't God-realization.

[RMQualtrough]

11 hours ago, The Lucid Dreamer said:

Based on some things that he’s said in the past, I’ve had the suspicion that Sam Harris might actually be a closet non-dualist.  That’s probably not true, but one can dream.

IMO social pressure and ego makes it so he will not admit his true honest belief about things. His ego is not only his own; he is expected to be a certain way by a VERY large number of people.

When he spoke to Spira he clearly understood, so when Spira said awareness went nowhere in his experience under anaesthesia, Sam acknowledged it and ended that topic.

[Endangered-EGO]

@ConsciousOwl10 He's not a materialist, he's a "monist", which means reality is ONE.

He's also a follower of existential mysticism.

 

This means he agrees consciousness and existence is a miracle and that the Nature of reality is ONE/nondual.

That's as far as he's willing to go with metaphysics.

Unfortunately his books don't describe his actual position. I'm gonna wait for his next book on spirituality.

 

He's a neuroscientist though, so he's better safe than sorry and that's where his materialism comes from. A neuroscientist can't just question the fundaments of materialism, especially not if it's refuting spiritualism etc.

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@ConsciousOwl10 He's not a materialist, he's a "monist", which means reality is ONE.

He's also a follower of existential mysticism.

 

This means he agrees consciousness and existence is a miracle and that the Nature of reality is ONE/nondual.

That's as far as he's willing to go with metaphysics.

Unfortunately his books don't describe his actual position. I'm gonna wait for his next book on spirituality.

 

He's a neuroscientist though, so he's better safe than sorry and that's where his materialism comes from. A neuroscientist can't just question the fundaments of materialism, especially not if it's refuting spiritualism etc.

Dr. James Cooke on YouTube is an actual neuroscientist who discusses mysticism etc.

[Mulky]

He has a really good mental understanding of something that can happen (seeing the illusion of self), that leads to spiritual experience.  I don't know if he has had it in a real enough way yet, although he does talk about engaging in practices to see it in a real enough way.  He is also introducing it to communities of people who will not listen to him if he does not open the door to it in a logical scientific way.  The best way to introduce a scientific person to spirituality is to use their own system of logic to prove that there isn't really a self, at least not in the way we think.  You can then also use logic to point out that certain insights and understanding may come to a mind being used in a different and less commonly used way.  that to assume that to not be possible would just be an assumpion. that you're mind is in a certain state when thinking with words, and there may be understandings that come when your mind is in a different state that does not involve words.  But to get people to go past all that he has to at least greet them with concepts.  

Edited January 23, 2022 by Mulky

[Raptorsin7]

Sam was a great bridge for me to get interested in serious spiritual seeking. I think he got caught up with fame and achieving material success, but he was a real seek for over a decade in his 20's.

His app has a lot of great teachers and conversations on it. I definitely wouldn't say he's anti spiritual, but he's definitely close minded to some more radical insight and exploration into consciousness 

[Whatever]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Ok I'm not going to preach to somebody who it has obviously not worked for.

No clue what it means for you for it to work. Trip heavily affected and in line with ideas youve heard from Leo before you started tripping? I did it when Leo was still talking about picking up chicks. 

Complite timeless nothingness without even sensory experience present. Then that void suddenly being filled with deepening love (after that trip I couldnt buy atheistic nor materialistic worldview I had).

As that love deepened for what id describe as eternity, suddenly there was tought "I love you" (my girlfriend). After that, in that same deepening ocean of love my sense of self was slowly being built around that love relationship. 

Now the world came back with its shapes and I saw my room again. Some would say that this was the end of trip and for years I tought that is the case and that the point of spirituality is to get back to such state.

Over the years ive started to see and interpret it differently, yes essentially I am a tought of God, an as that tought appeared God started a relationship with me. I dont see such toughts as indifferent attitude as you and so I interpret them differently. Also the trip ending and life continuing with challenges and suffering wasnt only the outcome of trip ending but also that love deepening. With a sole purpose for me to love others. "Love one another as I have loved you". That seems to me infinitely more difficult and revarding as keeping on getting high to try to get rid of myself to become God. Thats like Elon Musk not really digging us grimey hopeless, hard to love people here on earth and planning on moving to mars.

So stretching myself daily in service for those in need I rid myself of self centerdness and in relation to those others I become my true self stronger by the day for we are like mirrors to eachother.

During Meditation and psychedelic period I had not enought desire to help others, they were illusiory and just blind to how their ego causes all suffering (no communital or relational aspect or any other nuance there). I was just focusing on my experience and awareness expanding. Not finding myself anywhere. Yet I managed to remain very self centered. 

Giving away my inner peace in order to be present FOR others and serving something bigger than myself like that, serving God in those who are in need feels just expotentially more true to me. That way im not becoming an end stop to love, mercy or forgiveness like when I tought spirituality is about states of realisation but im challenged to pass it on. Forget hell, being challenged to love as ive been loved, thats horrible. Especially if I dont take the easy way out and call this life, others, and our suffering illusory.

 

Ps. And thank you for not preaching. Idk why you tought you were in position to do that anyway even if I was in hights of spiritual perfection like you. Expressing your experience, your views, interpretations and ideas is conplitelly ok and im glad to hear about them. But you speaking with an authority of existence itself? Pfft..

Edited January 23, 2022 by Whatever

[Carl-Richard]

40 minutes ago, Whatever said:

No clue what it means for you for it to work. Trip heavily affected and in line with ideas youve heard from Leo before you started tripping? I did it when Leo was still talking about picking up chicks. 

Complite timeless nothingness without even sensory experience present. Then that void suddenly being filled with deepening love (after that trip I couldnt buy atheistic nor materialistic worldview I had).

As that love deepened for what id describe as eternity, suddenly there was tought "I love you" (my girlfriend). After that, in that same deepening ocean of love my sense of self was slowly being built around that love relationship. 

Now the world came back with its shapes and I saw my room again. Some would say that this was the end of trip and for years I tought that is the case and that the point of spirituality is to get back to such state.

Over the years ive started to see and interpret it differently, yes essentially I am a tought of God, an as that tought appeared God started a relationship with me. I dont see such toughts as indifferent attitude as you and so I interpret them differently. Also the trip ending and life continuing with challenges and suffering wasnt only the outcome of trip ending but also that love deepening. With a sole purpose for me to love others. "Love one another as I have loved you". That seems to me infinitely more difficult and revarding as keeping on getting high to try to get rid of myself to become God. Thats like Elon Musk not really digging us grimey hopeless, hard to love people here on earth and planning on moving to mars.

So stretching myself daily in service for those in need I rid myself of self centerdness and in relation to those others I become my true self stronger by the day for we are like mirrors to eachother.

During Meditation and psychedelic period I had not enought desire to help others, they were illusiory and just blind to how their ego causes all suffering (no communital or relational aspect or any other nuance there). I was just focusing on my experience and awareness expanding. Not finding myself anywhere. Yet I managed to remain very self centered. 

Giving away my inner peace in order to be present FOR others and serving something bigger than myself like that, serving God in those who are in need feels just expotentially more true to me. That way im not becoming an end stop to love, mercy or forgiveness like when I tought spirituality is about states of realisation but im challenged to pass it on. Forget hell, being challenged to love as ive been loved, thats horrible. Especially if I dont take the easy way out and call this life, others, and our suffering illusory.

 

Ps. And thank you for not preaching. Idk why you tought you were in position to do that anyway even if I was in hights of spiritual perfection like you. Expressing your experience, your views, interpretations and ideas is conplitelly ok and im glad to hear about them. But you speaking with an authority of existence itself? Pfft..

Why do you pretend that experience is not absolute?

[Whatever]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Why do you pretend that experience is not absolute?

Everyone has experience. Everyone perverts that experience and its interpretations especally when talking about it to others. People want to be seen in certain ways. You wanted to be seen as someone who preaches to me about my experience pointing smth out, preassuming that what you happen to experience and what you interpret it to mean in relation to all of reality represents highest truth. That im not buying. 

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Whatever said:

Everyone has experience.

That's exactly it.

[Whatever]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's exactly it.

Yea, mine is just inclusive of toughts, history, desire and reality of others. 

[Preety_India]

He is a social climber. 

 

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Whatever said:

"Love one another as I have loved you".

May I ask, was this telepathically communicated to you? In my extremely intense 6G shroom trip, as I was coming around, I was left with the words "Be an example of my love in the world". It felt like God put those words straight into my head. At the time, the love I'd just experienced was so infinitely huge that it felt like an incredibly daunting if not impossible task. It also felt absolutely obvious that this was the most important thing in life.

Edited January 23, 2022 by axiom

[axiom]

5 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

When Spira said awareness went nowhere in his experience under anaesthesia, Sam acknowledged it and ended that topic.

I listened to the podcast, and I was initially confused by this. It seemed like a cop-out, since obviously most people don't experience "awareness" as such during general anaesthesia. 

Now I understand that Spira was saying exactly that though. His awareness was continuous. There was before the anaesthetic and then after the anaesthetic. There was no experience of time or awareness "during" the anaesthetic because from his POV that never happened.

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, axiom said:

I listened to the podcast, and I was initially confused by this. It seemed like a cop-out, since obviously most people don't experience "awareness" as such during general anaesthesia. 

Now I understand that Spira was saying exactly that though. His awareness was continuous. There was before the anaesthetic and then after the anaesthetic. There was no experience of time or awareness "during" the anaesthetic because from his POV that never happened.

Awareness has a formless and timeless dimension. People confuse awareness with wakefulness and awareness of form (inter-subjective sensory phenomena; sights, sounds, smells, sensations). Anesthesia is therefore analogous (but not synonymous) to deep sleep: awareness without wakefulness.

[axiom]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Awareness has a formless and timeless dimension. People confuse awareness with wakefulness and awareness of form (inter-subjective sensory phenomena; sights, sounds, smells, sensations). Anesthesia is therefore analogous (but not synonymous) to deep sleep: awareness without wakefulness.

I have noticed lately that the sense of "me" isn't constant. It has the same way of materialising and dissipating as all other thoughts. In flow states, during sleep and while daydreaming for example.

However, as far as I recall - although I may be wrong here - Spira wasn't suggesting that general anaesthesia in his own case created a state of "awareness without wakefulness" (although of course such states do exist and I'm sure that G.A. can indeed create them).

I think he was simply saying that his awareness was continuous; that there was no interruption. He was awake and aware before the anaesthetic, and he was awake and aware after the anaesthetic. There was no experience of anything "during the anaesthetic", or if there was, he cannot recall it in the present moment... which in fact means the state of interrupted consciousness, as Sam Harris put it, isn't "real" for him. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by axiom

[Whatever]

53 minutes ago, axiom said:

May I ask, was this telepathically communicated to you? In my extremely intense 6G shroom trip, as I was coming around, I was left with the words "Be an example of my love in the world". It felt like God put those words straight into my head. At the time, the love I'd just experienced was so infinitely huge that it felt like an incredibly daunting if not impossible task. It also felt absolutely obvious that this was the most important thing in life.

Telepathically communicated doesnt ring true, then again I dont know what you mean by it. First years I was just desperate to get into that state of nothingness since I viewes thing thru non dual lense (read Tolle and stuff back then). I kinda forgot about love part, let alone becoming human part and loving others, tought that was just unfortunate mistake that I came back to be me and was obsessed with non duality and tried to tune my experience toward that direction.

Then after some years was more on a bliss trip as I had intense kundalini energy going for few years and tought I need to purge all impurities out of me, became very sensitive to everything and everyone. Got obsessed with getting back to that stage of love.

Then some years of doing nothing and "purging" went by and I found myself quite burnt out and jaded on suffering. For years now I couldnt have fooled myself with Tolle's kind of views regarding suffering. God was not great nor was everything His will. He was actually very easily stomped on and forgotten, ridiciloud and crusified in suffering others. Scapegoated and killed in order to remain cathartic peace. A lot like in here peoples problems are seen as "so called problems" and their suffering is ridiculed and selfhood scapegoated rather than being a midstop for love to be shared.

Growing to see these victim producing, scapegoat reguiring dynamics in world and in myself is whats been pulling me out of self centeredness.

Started to see Jesus's story differently too. Dont think he was promoting solely some states of non dual awareness. 

He obiviously didnt come to be sacrificed to change God's attitude toward human but human attitude toward God. He allowed himself to be scapegoated and crucified to reveal to us that God (love) is complitelly non violent and reguires no sacrifices, revenge or blood. Bringing responsibility of violence projected to will of God back to us. Showing that its God who suffers as human, with human abd among human. And everything we do to for other we so to him. 

So to say rape is love and everything happening in world is will of God is obivious perversion of love to me. This can only been perverted in this way by stopping to be in relationship with God and claiming Godhood to oneself, assuming that ones own will is God's will. This is envy in essence "I want to become you even if it costs my selfhood". Envy I think is perversion of "I want to follow you and become like you".

Anyway, with these things seen im challenged to become the endstop to reactivity and competitive, envious desire that leads to scapegoating, sacrified violence and sacrifice. Dynamics present in myself, forgiven and now challenged to do the same myself to others 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Whatever