Systems thinkers

[Carl-Richard]

Quickly made a rough overview over some different systems thinkers and the circles they're associated with. A lot of it is interconnected somehow  (click on the picture if you have trouble reading):

I tried to add just enough people to make a decent representation of each category and limited green arrows to across categories (I figured it's easy to make it into a mess). The direction of the arrows denotes the place from which someone or something draws inspiration or is affiliated with in a subordinate sense. For example, many people draw inspiration from or are somehow associated with Game B, and Game B draws inspiration from fields like Deep ecology. You can help me find more categories and people to add under them if you'd like  

 

[itachi uchiha]

Is ken wilber on stage yellow.how can he conceptualize higher stages if he is at yello

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by itachi uchiha

[Space Lizard]

You should find a place for John Michael Greer, one of the most brilliant systems thinkers around, imo. Not sure where he fits in your scheme; he combines many ecological/historical/occult schools of thought, influenced by people like Nietzsche, Spengler, Manley P. Hall and Joseph Tainter. Greer is a genius at shooting down the narratives of fashionable modern intellectuals, while showing how ideas rejected by the "Religion of Progress" are highly relevant to our times. It's brilliant stuff, imo; real high level, worldview-changing, timeless thinking. See The Next Ten Billion Years or a recent piece, Tomorrowland Has Fallen, for examples of his thinking.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Space Lizard

[Carl-Richard]

Speaking of the devil, here we have most of the Game B guys gathered together (literally posted just 1-2 hours after I made the mind map):

[aurum]

@Carl-Richard

Glad to see you included Jordan Hall on there. He doesn’t get the same amount of attention on here as Daniel but he seems just as intellectually brilliant and a good dude overall. I think you could also add Buckminster Fuller to the Game B category, as he was talking Game B before it was called Game B.

I think you could also make a category for certain economists as they tend to think systemically. People like Herman Daly, Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen and EF Schumacher inspired a whole generation of ecological and degrowth economists. Irving Fisher, Marx and Keynes of course also come to mind. There’s a ton that could be added to that list.

[happyhappy]

@Carl-Richard  golden posts. hats off bro!

[undeather]

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Quickly made a rough overview over some different systems thinkers and the circles they're associated with. A lot of it is interconnected somehow  (click on the picture if you have trouble reading):

I tried to add just enough people to make a decent representation of each category and limited green arrows to across categories (I figured it's easy to make it into a mess). The direction of the arrows denotes the place from which someone or something draws inspiration from or is affiliated with in a subordinate sense. For example, many people draw inspiration from or are somehow associated with Game B, and Game B draws inspiration from fields like Deep ecology. You can help me find more categories and people to add under them if you'd like  

Great, high quality post! Kudos to you! 

Sadly too sophisticated for this forum, since most people here dont care about developing their thinking in any fundamental way. 
I (personally) wouldnt include Bret Weinstein anymore since he hasnt shown any sign of system thinking in the last 12 months. 

[Windappreciator]

10 hours ago, itachi uchiha said:

Is ken wilber on stage yellow.how can he conceptualize higher stages if he is at yello

 

why would he not be able to

even stage red can conceptualized higher stages

Edited January 19, 2022 by Windappreciator

[LastThursday]

7 minutes ago, undeather said:

Sadly too sophisticated for this forum,

I wouldn't bash the forum members too much. Systems thinking doesn't come naturally to 99% of people. Even thinking differently is very hard for most. It's not lack of care, it's lack of ability. There should be a lot more topics on systems thinking on the forum.

[Windappreciator]

14 minutes ago, undeather said:

Sadly too sophisticated for this forum, since most people here dont care about developing their thinking in any fundamental way. 
 

yeah what are you talking about, you are prescribing ssris.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Windappreciator

[undeather]

18 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

I wouldn't bash the forum members too much. Systems thinking doesn't come naturally to 99% of people. Even thinking differently is very hard for most. It's not lack of care, it's lack of ability. There should be a lot more topics on systems thinking on the forum.

I didnt bash any forum members, its just an ongoing observation that has been going on for almost 6 years now. 
You would not believe the private messages I get from somer users here, its outright ridicolous. People dont CARE about this kind of topics. A big part of the sensemaking happening on this forum is extremely juvenile and without any trace of humility. Thank god the moderators are for the most part really far in their developement and give decent responses. 

In fact...here we go again. Total nonsense:

15 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

yeah what are you talking about, you are prescribing ssris.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by undeather

[Windappreciator]

3 minutes ago, undeather said:

In fact...here we go again. Total nonsense:

wasn't meant to be an attack, but i believe that is the case by what you mentioned under another thread

[DManKee]

Thank you! ♥️

[LastThursday]

9 minutes ago, undeather said:

People dont CARE about this kind of topics.

I respect your point of view. Yeah exploring systems thinking is like explaining maths to most - boring and difficult and pointless. But for example Spiral Dynamics is systems thinking and there's a LOT of talk about that on the forum. People do care if they can see its worth.

[undeather]

29 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

wasn't meant to be an attack, but i believe that is the case by what you mentioned under another thread

Yes, and like every other drug - SSRI's have their place in modern medicine.
See, this is exactly what I was talking about - your previous comment implies that perscribing antidepressives is some sort of terrible thing to do. It implies that a system thinker would never do this - which is of course utter nonsense. Most people here who talk about medicine with this annoying "do/dont do"-tone never spend a day in their life treating patients. 

If a 53 year old women with a metastasized bile duct tumor suffers from the worst end of life anxiety/depression that you can potentially experiece - the humane thing to do is to pump her full of antidepressives/benzos as fast as possible. Anything other than than that is inhumane. Maybe in the future, this will change and we are allowed to give them psilocybin or similar substances - but its literally not possible in the moment. In such terminal cases you are also not aiming for some other form of long term therpy - she is is going to die soon, so the "quick fix" is the therapy of choice.

The issue is the following: You dont have to deal wtih the suffering of patients on a daily basis - you never had to tell relatives, including young children, that we doctors are going to make it "as pleasent as possible for her/him". That lack of experience is the root fo your ignorance.
This is just one example....

I get annoyed/angry pretty fast with such comments because it cuts REALLY close to my heart. 
This is not a personal attack against you - I hope you understand this.
A good doctor will take as many variables a possible and find the perfect therapy for each individual patient. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by undeather

[Windappreciator]

6 minutes ago, undeather said:

Yes, and like every other drug - SSRI's have their place in modern medicine.
See, this is exactly what I was talking about - your previous comment implies that perscribing antidepressives is some sort of terrible thing to do. It implies that a system thinker would never do this - which is of course utter nonsense. Most people here who talk about medicine with this annoying "do/dont do this"-tone never spend a day in their life treating patients. 
 

well, yes this is what i was implying and i assume you do not have the drive to work on changing anything about it, also based on your past responses.

6 minutes ago, undeather said:

Yes, and like every other drug - SSRI's have their place in modern medicine.
See, this is exactly what I was talking about - your previous comment implies that perscribing antidepressives is some sort of terrible thing to do. It implies that a system thinker would never do this - which is of course utter nonsense. Most people here who talk about medicine with this annoying "do/dont do this"-tone never spend a day in their life treating patients. 

If a 53 year old women with a metastasized bile duct tumor suffers from the worst end of life anxiety/depression that you can potentially experiece - the humane thing to do is to pump her full of antidepressives/benzos as fast as possible. Anything other than than that is inhumane. Maybe in the future, this will change and we are allowed to give them psilocybin or similar substances - but its literally not possible in the moment. You are also not aiming for some other form of long term therpy - she is is going to die soon, so the "quick fix" is  the therapy you want. 
This is just one example of MANY I could give you where ...

A good doctor will take as many variables a possible and find the perfect therapy for each individual patient. 

i am pretty sure those are not the only cases.

again, it's not meant to attack you.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Windappreciator

[Kksd74628]

@undeather

Thing here is that antidepressants are somehow seen as easy way out. Of course they do have their places in numerous of examples, but in most cases at least what I know antidepressants are being handed too easily to the patients. Antidepressant + therapy combo is very effective when the patient has hard time contemplating his/her feelings, thought patterns or past. Idea with antidepressants should be seen to help the patient face truths and accept them more effortlessly.

Also we get to the another topic of not helping teens, before strong damage has happened. Yeah we have all kind of school therapists, but the help teens get is very weak. Yeah I also understand that changing negative thought patterns takes lot of time, but I would argue that doing things more carefully and with invistment of time, money and energy it would pay itself exponentially in the long run not only because we would have more people that are capable to work and give back to the society, but also, because everyone should be worth enough to live unbelievable beautiful life.

Also learn not to call anything non sense, because if something didn't make sense to the one who is expressing him- /herself he/ she wouldn't have said that. So try to find reason why people think like the are thinking right now and only after that it is able to teach them to think more wisely and maybe you can also learn from their perspective.

People do not suffer, because they know they think illogically, but because they for real think that their way of seeing things is the right one. Teach your fellows where they get their thinking wrong and that is the only wise way to help anyone with anything, because just calling someone illogical, stupid, lazy etc. won't help them to fix their thought patterns, but it only makes them more sad. I guess you want more happiness and not sadness to society so take this message not as argument, but as guidance and new step in life to be more friendly and loving to the Universe.

I love you, because you have passion towards making people think more wisely <3 

[Bernardo Carleial]

@Carl-Richard Man! I really Love your posts on Systems Thinking!????

[Bernardo Carleial]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

I tried to add just enough people to make a decent representation of each category and limited green arrows to across categories (I figured it's easy to make it into a mess). The direction of the arrows denotes the place from which someone or something draws inspiration from or is affiliated with in a subordinate sense. For example, many people draw inspiration from or are somehow associated with Game B, and Game B draws inspiration from fields like Deep ecology. You can help me find more categories and people to add under them if you'd like  

Man, you forgot Jay Forrester and Donella Meadows,  the developers of Systems Dynamics at MIT

https://youtube.com/channel/UCIMMr8pSgOdBdVZYIyZX3Yg

 

 

[Bernardo Carleial]

12 hours ago, itachi uchiha said:

Is ken wilber on stage yellow.how can he conceptualize higher stages if he is at yello

 

Tier 2, which is where vMEME Yellow emerges from, is the ground from which the person can realize that society and individuals are developed based on models, and not just that, but he also becomes aware that he himself has his own framework for self-development, and that it too is just model  , so why would he not able to conceptualize other stages? 

Don Beck and Christopher Cowan themselves are at Yellow,  and they conceptualized vMEME Turquoise,  if its right or wrong I don't know, I've never reached that stage, but because they have been at Yellow for so long, and they approach the SD model from a place of honesty and unbias, that I believe they were able to spot the things that needs to be transcended from Yellow and reach Turquoise, and, because of vMEME Yellow's paradigm,  that too is just a model...

Edited January 19, 2022 by Bernardo Carleial