If we are one,why cant i see and experience what you see and experience?

[RMQualtrough]

3 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

If it was just me I would be successful already. ?‍♂️ 
 

I don’t believe it’s just my own bubble of experience and no one else exists. I think that’s foolishness. 
 

If I was all alone and infinite I would make my life a great life because there’s nothing else to do. But, my life has been very hard. 
 

There’s been good too. But, If it was just me I’d just be singing and performing full time. It’s simple. But, that’s not the case. I’m stuck in what’s obviously a social matrix of other animals and it’s hard.

There aren't any bubbles if you see the interpretation Leo is using. Time isn't real. Last week's you is happening simultaneously to now yet you aren't experiencing last week. All perspectives are simultaneous in the eternal now. Which is just infinity appearing stretched out in a line by illusion.

[Thought Art]

@RMQualtrough Yet here I am as if the consequences of past actions led me to this point…. ?

Whether or not that is metaphysically truth which I think it is… I’m still stuck in the physical existence having to survive. 
 

So, even if on the highest level it just being me is true. It’s relatively false, and the relative plain I am in is mundane physical reality therefore that is what is absolutely true. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Thought Art

[Shambhu]

53 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

There aren't any bubbles if you see the interpretation Leo is using. Time isn't real. Last week's you is happening simultaneously to now yet you aren't experiencing last week. All perspectives are simultaneous in the eternal now. Which is just infinity appearing stretched out in a line by illusion.

@RMQualtrough I think "bubbles" is just an analogy, meaning that the content of one is different from the other.  It would be the same as saying the dinning room is different from the bathroom.  "Rooms" are a distinction we make because it's useful, but in actuality, you cannot divide space.  It's always a singular whole.  That being said, the contents in one room are different from the contents in another room, just like the contents in one mind are different from the contents in another mind.  It is the contents which we refer to as mind.  The existence or non-existence of time does not logically show that only one mind exist, even if all contents are simultaneously now.

There are other, more subtle problems here as well.  If time does not exist (and you are correct, it doesn't), then minds do not exist.  Time is just a measurement in change, but ultimate reality is changeless.  Since by definition minds are constantly changing, if you remove change, you remove the mind.  It's not that there is one or many minds; there are no minds at all.  This is an absolute view.  If we are speaking at the relative level, then we have to conclude there are many minds, just as there are many bodies.

Here is another problem.  In your current experience of now, which is all there is, how do you even know there was a past.  All you have access to is present experience, which includes the memory of the past, but a memory is not the same as the past or proof of it.  Since, you have no real evidence for the past, you cannot argue that a past mind is the same or different.

One last problem is this.  Let's assume there is a past, and because there is a past, there is change.  Since there is change, there is the possibility for at least one mind.  That much should feel self-evident, since we are thinking.  How do you know that the mind from 10 minutes ago is the same mind as you are experiencing now?  The contents of the past mind would be different from the contents of the current mind, and they would not share the same time or space.  If they are different in every way, to call them identical would violate the law of noncontradiction.  The only thing making them appear the same is a current thought that claims as much.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Shambhu
tagged wrong user

[ChadT]

I still struggle with this.  The idea that I am god, dreaming up reality, especially all other conscious beings, only makes sense to me when I consider that I am also dreaming up my own ego ( Chad ).  In that sense, I ( my ego ) am no more, or less, than all other egos.   All egos come from the same source.  That helps me frame this concept in a way that resonates with me. 

[Shambhu]

8 minutes ago, ChadT said:

I still struggle with this.  The idea that I am god, dreaming up reality, especially all other conscious beings, only makes sense to me when I consider that I am also dreaming up my own ego ( Chad ).  In that sense, I ( my ego ) am no more, or less, than all other egos.   All egos come from the same source.  That helps me frame this concept in a way that resonates with me. 

@ChadT The confusion I most often see is this.  The individual ego believes it is the dreamer, when it is actually just the dream.

[RMQualtrough]

@Thought Art But you do see that if I completely erased your memory every single nanosecond, there wouldn't actually be any continuous thing there. Our thoughts feelings and sense input changes constantly. It's only memory and ego stringing it together.

Even relatively, there's not so much anything concrete there where I could define a static "you". You'd be more like a pattern I could make educated guesses about the behavior of.

Now if every single moment instead of erasing your memory and ego I REPLACED it with completely new ones from "other people", would you be a new bubble every moment?

[RMQualtrough]

@Shambhu I think the word "mind" is not used in the same manner as the word "self". You described no-self, there is nothing static apart from nothingness. Mind is a term to encompass both sides of the coin, I think.

[Shambhu]

2 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Shambhu I think the word "mind" is not used in the same manner as the word "self". You described no-self, there is nothing static apart from nothingness. Mind is a term to encompass both sides of the coin, I think.

@RMQualtrough I would agree that mind is a broader term.  The sense of self, or ego, is part of the mind.  However, mind is not unlimited; it is just an appearing within awareness.

[axiom]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not at all.

99% chance you never will unless you make serious effort towards it.

And yet, ironically, they are experiencing it right now.

I'm not sure "effort" as such works. Things appear, but there is no separate individual there to be able to do anything or become anything.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

And yet, ironically, they are experiencing it right now.

I'm not sure "effort" as such works. Things appear, but there is no separate individual there to be able to do anything or become anything.

They are not conscious of what is being experienced.

It's not ironic. They are simply asleep, lost in their dream.

[Thought Art]

There are others

[ZhenZhenZhen]

Wow. Insightful thread.

[Dazgwny]

4 hours ago, Thought Art said:

If it was just me I would be successful already. ?‍♂️ 
 

I don’t believe it’s just my own bubble of experience and no one else exists. I think that’s foolishness. 
 

If I was all alone and infinite I would make my life a great life because there’s nothing else to do. But, my life has been very hard

Hahaha but it is though mate. Your just not conscious of it. Your life being hard and not great to your ego is because your not conscious of how your doing it. Your not conscious of the mirror. How what seems like the outside is completely and totally mirrored to your concept of self. If it was a computer running a program then it would be running pin point spot on absolutely no inconsistencies. But your like a human looking at the codes of the program and not understanding them, not getting what’s in front of your very eyes. The mirrored way that consciousness works with to create your reality is absolutely ludicrous mate. It’s such a total reflection it’s painful when you see it. Painfully beautiful. I was embarrassed during one awakening that I had to cover my eyes, I couldn’t even look at the walls of my home I was so looking at myself in the mirror. I became shy to the beauty of my own being and nearly broke down in tears. I couldn’t look. If I’d have looked for lengthly periods of time I felt like I would die to it. The issue is that your concept of self needs to change from being a finite individual in a great big outer massive world, to becoming the whole universe, and I don’t just mean just the physical universe, I mean everything. Yep it took psychedelics for me to see and be this. But at the end of the day it is what it is and denial in these states becomes impossible 

[RMQualtrough]

2 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Why do I find this so scary??

Man, it IS frightening to be in it. When your mind is scrambling to find some kind of border ANYWHERE to grab, but is just grabbing at nothing forever in all directions, infinitely, never finding any edge to ever grasp onto... It's really traumatic, lol.

It's hard to imagine anyone being in that and being okay with it. I mean if you were fully, all the way there, you'd be dead. Anything before that I don't know how some people aren't scarred for life.

[Tristan12]

14 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY!

Why do I find this so scary??

Do you mean you find infinity scary, or that if someone was to creep up on you in the middle of the night and start going "INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY!" that that would be scary? Lol

[Vincent S]

19 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Man, it IS frightening to be in it. When your mind is scrambling to find some kind of border ANYWHERE to grab, but is just grabbing at nothing forever in all directions, infinitely, never finding any edge to ever grasp onto... It's really traumatic, lol.

It's hard to imagine anyone being in that and being okay with it. I mean if you were fully, all the way there, you'd be dead. Anything before that I don't know how some people aren't scarred for life.

This is the reason why we "exist". Because we shit ourselves everytime this is shown to us. And we run back to our little hideouts.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Vincent S

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

They are not conscious of what is being experienced.

It's not ironic. They are simply asleep, lost in their dream.

It seems ironic to me, because a dream character cannot pull itself up by its own bootstraps. Any effort expended by the dream character (or seemingly expended by the dream character) keeps the illusion of the dream character going. It feeds the finite energy of that character.

In order for God to wake up to itself, the dream character must be suspended. Any and all "effort" must be entirely stopped. This typically takes the form of death, ego death, or spontaneous lucidity with no apparent cause (as God, you can become lucid in the dream).

It seems to me that as such, there is nothing that can be "done" to wake up, barring in-dream lucidity as God. The dream characters have no agency, so cannot in themselves affect the dream nor the waking up from the dream. Events seem to occur in a certain order.... but ultimately it either happens or it does not. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by axiom

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, axiom said:

It seems ironic to me, because a dream character cannot pull itself up by its own bootstraps. Any effort expended by the dream character (or seemingly expended by the dream character) keeps the illusion of the dream character going. It feeds the finite energy of that character.

This simply isn't true.

You can set the intention to awaken, you can work towards it, and you can deploy technologies to help you.

Quote

It seems to me that as such, there is nothing that can be "done" to wake up, barring in-dream lucidity as God.

You can plug some 5-MeO-DMT.

It's like you're saying nothing can be done to catch a fish, it just has to jump out of the sea and land in your boat.

Meanwhile, some of us are fishing with dynamite.

Quote

The dream characters have no agency, so cannot in themselves affect the dream nor the waking up from the dream.

Dream characters certainly have agency, just not infinite agency.

You can choose right now to take some 5-MeO-DMT.

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

This simply isn't true.

You can set the intention to awaken, you can work towards it, and you can deploy technologies to help you.

You can plug some 5-MeO-DMT.

Dream characters certainly have agency, just not infinite agency.

I'm not so sure that dream characters have agency. The dream universe appears to be comprised of deterministic cause and effect relationships; and dream characters, being part of the substance of the dreamworld, appear to follow these same mechanics of Determinism.

I certainly would agree that within the dream your avatar can plug some dreamed 5-MEO DMT, and it may shock you (as God) enough to wake you up. A bit like how getting stabbed in a dream can sometimes wake you up. But that says nothing as to the involvement of any degree of agency in that process.

There is the illusion of agency, sure. There is the illusion of being able to act independently of all the cause and effect relationships of the apparent universe. But in reality, like everything that seems to exist here, we seem to be bound by the same dreamed physical laws.

P.S. I'm open minded about this. I'm just not sure what agency looks like in what appears to be an entirely deterministic dream universe.

Edited January 18, 2022 by axiom

[Tristan12]

31 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

1 hour ago, Tristan12 said:

Do you mean you find infinity scary, or that if someone was to creep up on you in the middle of the night and start going "INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY!" that that would be scary? Lol

Both are pretty scary in their own right lmao. But what I know for sure, is that if Leo suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the middle of the night, and wake me up with constant 10 minute barrage of "INFINITY!" chanting, I'd be shitting bricks lmao

You and me both better not miss a day of meditation or infinity chanting Leo will come get me in my sleep lmao