Two absolutely opposite schools about the meaning of life

[The0Self]

6 hours ago, Ivan Dimi said:

I can add additional to the environmental & ecological devastation the demage we are causing  to our minds. I am leaving in Switzerland, one of the richest countries in the world and met so many young unhappy people with depression, burnouts etc. It doesn't actually make any sense to be that way,  it is absurd.

? 

[roopepa]

@Ivan Dimi There is also the idea that life is a school. That we're here to learn something. I see this one is quite popular in new age circles.

And that life is a test. That one is widespread in many religions. We're being tested if we are good/righteous/godly/devout enough.

Hardly no-one dares to think there is nothing to learn, nothing to prove, nothing to achieve, nothing to figure out. So there's always some need for suffering, for fear, guilt and shame. I've been suspecting that this is what suffering fundamentally is. This is why the ego suffers. Because it thinks there exists a need for it. Which then is projected as all kinds of narratives and philosophies.

@Nahm Whatchu think of that ⬆️ ?

Edited January 18, 2022 by roopepa

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, roopepa said:

@Ivan Dimi There is also the idea that life is a school. That we're here to learn something. I see this one is quite popular in new age circles.

If there is discord, it’s fair to say life is teaching you something. Fair enough imo to phrase it that way. Life, being of course unconditional love, the ‘teaching’ being to see more clearly, to love. 

1 hour ago, roopepa said:

And that life is a test. That one is widespread in many religions. We're being tested if we are good/righteous/godly/devout enough.

In regard to a judge in the sky, a separate self & an afterlife therein, there is none of these. You might say, God’s love questioning God’s love is so intrinsically absurd it’s actually hysterical.  

1 hour ago, roopepa said:

Hardly no-one dares to think there is nothing to learn, nothing to prove, nothing to achieve, nothing to figure out. So there's always some need for suffering, for fear, guilt and shame. I've been suspecting that this is what suffering fundamentally is. This is why the ego suffers. Because it thinks there exists a need for it. Which then is projected as all kinds of narratives and philosophies.

@Nahm Whatchu think of that ⬆️ ?

Without believing in egos, meaning, value & purpose, is there the possibility of fear, guilt, shame, and the manipulation therein? 

[Ivan Dimi]

3 hours ago, roopepa said:

@Ivan Dimi There is also the idea that life is a school. That we're here to learn something. I see this one is quite popular in new age circles.

And that life is a test. That one is widespread in many religions. We're being tested if we are good/righteous/godly/devout enough.

My intuition tells me that even that notion that we're here to learn something or life as a test is 100%  social / cultural collective ego built purpose that serves itself, so it belongs again to the first category I've described above of false life purposes / meanings of life.

3 hours ago, roopepa said:

Hardly no-one dares to think there is nothing to learn, nothing to prove, nothing to achieve, nothing to figure out.

That's true. Hardly no-one thinks that way. If you asked me some years ago I even thought and believed that to learn / to achieve / to hustle / to conquer / to compete is absolutely fundamental to be human, so to say is the essential human nature. But now I thing this isn't true and is product of  very very deep & very very long hundreds or thousands generations of brainwashing.  It doesn't mean that during the BEEING you can not learn, but in that concept i see learning more like a game. You learn something (or a lot) by enjoying this thing you have called a brain. So learning comes second after being and is a byproduct of enjoying life (actually the complete opposite of everything I was told in my whole life ). And think about it doesn't matter what you do or don't do (´do´ in the ego sense ) you always learn, so it is actually impossible to not learn. And paradoxically by doing nothing you may learn even more. For me in my career being the most relaxed  & carefree is the time I am most creative.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ivan Dimi

[roopepa]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

Without believing in egos, meaning, value & purpose, is there the possibility of fear, guilt, shame, and the manipulation therein? 

I guess not.

[HypnoticMagician]

This one is the most retarded advice I have ever seen. Of course, you need the first school more. The second is just to motivate yourself to do more. If you can enjoy just being, wouldn't you enjoy life more if you achieved materialistic success on top of that? What's the point of this? If you will become enlightened and then decide to live in a cave until you die, isn't this no different from having a very expensive, high quality computer and then installing a very efficient operating system like Linux and then not using it. God having infinite power yet being too lazy or unmotivated to try all kinds of utopian combinations... Why shouldn't god destroy itself in that case if it be of no use. Don't we all want the heaven? Hell, heaven is not a place you go after death. It is all in your head. If you change your inside, you will have changed your outside. Life is happening here, in this world. That's another bullshit lie of this matrix discouraging you away from prospering. Trusting and surrendering to a nonexistent benevolent god who punish evil and reward good by constantly being pure good in a pretty naive way, following certain rules without caring enough about, correctly fighting against what is happening to you, your loved ones right now at this moment is easiest rabbit hole you mustn't hesitate to question. A path you have to recognize to be a dead end. You are still taking blue pill in this way regardless of the religion you subscribe or spiritual teachings you adopt.

[Ivan Dimi]

23 minutes ago, HypnoticMagician said:

This one is the most retarded advice I have ever seen. 

That's basically everything what all great spiritual teachers teach since beginning of time ? Buddha, Jesus... all current ones Alan Watts, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Osho, Eckhart Tolle, Sadhguru and so on. It doesn't matter, pick one and he / she will tell you the same truth that Being is primary.  The problem is you can not grasp this truth now, you are not conscious of it. This can not be understood, but rather realized. You obviously can not realized this, so no amount of explanation can help. And even your reaction shows how much your ego is hurt. It is like a self defence mechanism of the ego.

[Ivan Dimi]

22 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

@Ivan Dimi I feel that there is a natural drive of exploration and "forwardness" in reality that is the source of all this beauty we call existence. Probably it is the burning of that internal flame which is then filtered by an inaccurate view of reality (=ego), which creates all the trouble.

But let's say we would collectively shift our focus unto the immediacy of experience (which I agree should be our focus now) and realize the ever present perfection of what we are - collective awakening - I think there would be a STRONG progressive movement coming from self-recognized Truth. That which is the ego's last barrier can be a healthy expression of embodied consciousness. Of course, this would look vastly different from what progress means today. It could mean technology merging with nature without any sort of selfish agenda behind it, other than celebrating unity of all existence. Imagine what would be possible... 

This is just a perspective to say: let's not demonize the general tendency of progressive movement, but be clear that the specific way in which it happens is a toxic and neurotic way of a confused collective consciousness which just wants to know itself. This takes away the guilt, shame and division and creates compassion for what is happening. It's just a thought, but I think even though this extreme focus on accomplishment and growth has been a great pain, it can certainly be of great use once we are awakened as a species (whenever that may be) - I think we would be able to co-create heaven on earth in no time

Completely agree with what you are saying and there is no demonizing of any progressive movement whatsoever. The deep realization that being is always primary don't mean that you do nothing, you build nothing and you create nothing, it means rather the opposite that the doing in this case is a product out of joy, play and pure creativity. In today's society almost all of our doing is out of fear. And this 'fear based doing' by those little scary egos that we are  is super destructive in so many way.

[HypnoticMagician]

2 hours ago, Ivan Dimi said:

That's basically everything what all great spiritual teachers teach since beginning of time ? Buddha, Jesus... all current ones Alan Watts, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Osho, Eckhart Tolle, Sadhguru and so on. It doesn't matter, pick one and he / she will tell you the same truth that Being is primary.  The problem is you can not grasp this truth now, you are not conscious of it. This can not be understood, but rather realized. You obviously can not realized this, so no amount of explanation can help. And even your reaction shows how much your ego is hurt. It is like a self defence mechanism of the ego.

Reaction? I have written this by with a smile in my face. lol. ( it is impossible to convey what kind of emotion you write your post with without using emoji ) Make sure it is not you who identified himself with lack of ego, at least, with the goal of eventually reaching this stage which is another attachment. The problem is not related to what sort of path - with or without ego - you prefer but not being able to let go of your attachments. Ego is, will keep being. You can never kill it. The true ego of yours is your consciousness. The "I" which delusional spiritualists call ego is not real ego, not real you. Just impulses, attachments, obsessions that you think is ego. You are not the thing you are trying to get rid of. You are not trying to get rid of your real ego but attachments which increases even the chance that you reach your attachments or desires. You believing egoistic, narcissistic, psychopathic people will never amount to anything, go to hell, reincarnate to a terrible environment within the cockroach form is just wishful thinking. It is expected for you seek justice when crushed by a bigger boss. That's the reason you wanna believe in karma, good people will always win. Not anybody on left hand path knowingly deny a good god punishing bad behavior, rewarding good deeds because they don't wanna bother changing their impulses, abusive addictions. If only such a god existed or, at least, a karma based mechanism existed. Although I am not perfect, I am not a that sinful person either. Maybe, it is you who are sinful person who sees the denial of god as a normal, common thing. I hope it is not you who have reacted to my arguments which are against your sense of justice. This is just a true moral conviction of me which is quite far from denial. I hope yours isn't a reaction either ?

Edited January 18, 2022 by HypnoticMagician

[Ivan Dimi]

21 minutes ago, HypnoticMagician said:

Reaction? I have written this by with a smile in my face. lol. ( it is impossible to convey what kind of emotion you write your post with without using emoji ) Make sure it is not you who identified himself with lack of ego, at least, with the goal of eventually reaching this stage which is another attachment. The problem is not related to what sort of path - with or without ego - you prefer but not being able to let go of your attachments. Ego is, will keep being. You can never kill it. The true ego of yours is your consciousness. The "I" which delusional spiritualists call ego is not real ego, not real you. Just impulses, attachments, obsessions that you think is ego. You are not the thing you are trying to get rid of. You are not trying to get rid of your real ego but attachments which increases even the chance that you reach your attachments or desires. You believing egoistic, narcissistic, psychopathic people will never amount to anything, go to hell, reincarnate to a terrible environment within the cockroach form is just wishful thinking. It is expected for you seek justice when crushed by a bigger boss. That's the reason you wanna believe in karma, good people will always win. Not anybody on left hand path knowingly deny a good god punishing bad behavior, rewarding good deeds because they don't wanna bother changing their impulses, abusive addictions. If only such a god existed or, at least, a karma based mechanism existed. Although I am not perfect, I am not a that sinful person either. Maybe, it is you who are sinful person who sees the denial of god as a normal, common thing. I hope it is not you who have reacted to my arguments which are against your sense of justice. This is just a true moral conviction of me which is quite far from denial. I hope yours isn't a reaction either ?

Sorry, but I don't have any clue what you are talking about and how this relates to the topic? You've completely lost me.

Again, the only thing what I am saying is that i have a glimpse of realization to what all great spiritual teachers are trying to tell us: being is primary, everything else is secondary. And than I made a point that we are living in the completely opposite fashion what's causes lots of troubles. Somehow I can't connect the dots and follow you with almost everything you are saying. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ivan Dimi