Alcohol for personal development?

[paprika]

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I've recently rewatched Leo's video on using psychedelics for personal development which made me eventually raise this question: why alcohol couldn't be used for the same purpose?

Given that it's used consciously, similarly what Leo said for psychedelics, drinking some safe amount of beer (~1 liter of 5.4% IPA for me) alone while focusing inside and being prepared for it, for example, was able to give me sudden insights on things were I was mentally stuck, permanently relieve stress in the inside, and also filled me with warm love (to my own surprise).  Sometimes I share the same experiences when drinking pu-erh teas.

I don't tell that it's on par with psychedelics (I haven't tried them, but based on what I heard about them, I have some vague assumptions about their effects) but might make an argument for "validating" the use of alcohol within some boundaries, as a lightweight and fully legal alternative.

[MotivatedByMusic177]

I use alcohol to relieve stress sometimes and to calm down from hard days from work. I like meditating and it keeps my mind off things in general because I have negative thoughts. I dont use psychedelics but alcohol is good in some situations but in moderation.

[paprika]

I've just found this interesting writing on the topic: Drunken Soulitude.

Edited January 16, 2022 by paprika
Typo fix

[Salvijus]

The tricky aspect of the mind is that it is highly prone to self deception. If there's some kind of compulsion towards something, mind can literally bend logic and invent clever phylosophies to justify seeking those compulsions. It's good to know this and be aware of it I believe.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Salvijus

[paprika]

@Salvijus I see what you mean, but something still makes me believe that drinking alcohol consciously might make sense.  Why to demonize it?  What makes other tools superior?  Note that I don't consider myself an addict.  Above a given limit, my mind refuses to consume more of it, it clearly sees no value of that.

[Salvijus]

@paprika perhaps there is a way to use alcohol in a positive way, but you're walking on a minefield with this logic imo.

There are better ways to improve one's life imo.

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Salvijus

[softlyblossoming]

39 minutes ago, paprika said:

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I've recently rewatched Leo's video on using psychedelics for personal development which made me eventually raise this question: why alcohol couldn't be used for the same purpose?

Given that it's used consciously, similarly what Leo said for psychedelics, drinking some safe amount of beer (~1 liter of 5.4% IPA for me) alone while focusing inside and being prepared for it, for example, was able to give me sudden insights on things were I was mentally stuck, permanently relieve stress in the inside, and also filled me with warm love (to my own surprise).  Sometimes I share the same experiences when drinking pu-erh teas.

I don't tell that it's on par with psychedelics (I haven't tried them, but based on what I heard about them, I have some vague assumptions about their effects) but might make an argument for "validating" the use of alcohol within some boundaries, as a lightweight and fully legal alternative.

@paprika If you've been rolling around in bed for the last 3 hours because you're too stressed out to fall asleep, you can just take a pill and problem solved, right? No one would call that drug addiction, it's just normal acceptable OTC medication use.

Ironically, the pill doesn't work if after you take it you start stressing out over how it's gonna turn you into a drug addict and it was a bad idea.

So you take another pill, and get more stressed because now you're hallucinating slightly and you thought "oh no I took too much".

So you take another pill.

And so on.

 

28 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The tricky aspect of the mind is that it is highly prone to self deception. If there's some kind of compulsion towards something, mind can literally bend logic and invent clever phylosophies to justify seeking those compulsions. It's good to know this and be aware of it I believe.

@Salvijus Spitting straight facts here, bro ??

 

20 minutes ago, paprika said:

@Salvijus I see what you mean, but something still makes me believe that drinking alcohol consciously might make sense.  Why to demonize it?  What makes other tools superior?  Note that I don't consider myself an addict.  Above a given limit, my mind refuses to consume more of it, it clearly sees no value of that.

@paprika He didn't demonize booze, all he said was be careful not to use the immediate benefits of the sleeping pill as an excuse to take it every night.

If you want reassurance that you're not a bad person for not being sober 100% of the time, wake up from your self-help grind-wheel to the reality that life is here to be enjoyed.

If you want reassurance that your moronic rules about why you should never drink or when you should drink or what's a proper reason why you should drink, you're literally bending logic and inventing clever phylosophies to justify seeking those compulsions. No rules, no problem.

Edited January 16, 2022 by softlyblossoming
spelling

[Salvijus]

@softlyblossoming lol ?

[paprika]

@softlyblossoming thanks for the detailed explanation.  I didn't consider a pint of beer as a "pill" as you described.  Much like an external tool to stir my mind a bit to become unstuck and derive inspiration from the experience.

What I'd like to understand here, how psychedelics would be different from alcohol if they're used in exactly the same way?  Why are psychedelics the ones that are preferred?  Does alcohol have any extra biological or psychological side-effect or difference in the way it interacts with the brain that could rule it out for personal development completely?  Note that I'm aware of that alcohol isn't that effective, it isn't in the scope of my question.

I believe that the bending of logic and invention of various related philosophies as you both described can apply for psychedelics as well, so I'd consider this another topic.

[Kksd74628]

@paprika
Personal development is after all about BEING. Any method that puts you conscious to present moment works in some degree. Are you in red room or blue room does not matter, because in both cases YOU ARE. In your journey to recognise BEING it's up to you if you want to be healthy and that's when your question becomes relevant.

If you want to learn about yourself being drunk do that, but if you want to learn about yourself truly do that without any disruption. Alcohol may help you out of persistent thought loop, but you need to learn to do that wherever you are and whatever you do. In personal development you want to add positive habits and reduce amount of harming ones and cutting down one bad habit by adding one in return is not benefical.

At least I would recommend adding sober contemplation and meditation practises with sometimes drinking and eventually stop drinking whenever that is possible.

Be gentle with yourself and remember that I am by your side <3

[Tim R]

I've seen a couple of threads now where people ask about using alcohol for personal development.

Before diving any deeper into that question, it needs to be said that whatever benefits one feels to obtain from consuming even small quantities of alcohol, one must be terribly, terribly careful not to seek a justification for drinking. 

Because in the end, that's exactly what such a question might lead to, a justification for drinking. 

And once one begins to justify alcohol consumption - and it doesn't matter what exactly the justification is - there opens up the possiblity of entering into rather dangerous territory. 

Alcohol doesn't raise awareness, first of all. It can feel like it does, but that is just an illusion - what actually happens is that alcohol dampens our awareness, slows down our thinking, acts as a primary anxiolytic (like barbiturates or benzodiazepines) and produces euphoria. 

2 hours ago, paprika said:

drinking some safe amount of beer (~1 liter of 5.4% IPA for me) alone while focusing inside and being prepared for it, for example, was able to give me sudden insights on things were I was mentally stuck, permanently relieve stress in the inside, and also filled me with warm love

Do you suffer from anxiety or do you tend to overthink and worry a lot? That's where it might've helped you to see where you're mentally stuck, because when in a neurotic and or anxious state of mind, we're often incapable of seeing our mental processes from an objective point of view (we feel stuck in our thoughts and beliefs).

Yes, it relieves stress, but only temporarily. In the long run and with regular consumption, alcohol increases your overall stress, both for your body and for your mind ( (its waste products are very toxic & withdrawal kicks in very quickly).

That warm love you feel is the dopamie rush.

[roopepa]

Basically any drug can be used to gain insights and such, because they change your state of mind.

Some native american tribes used tobacco as an entheogen. Zen monks might drink matcha. Rastafarians smoke cannabis. Pretty much every culture has some drug they use to change the state of mind, and it often has some sort of spiritual purpose too. There might even be a specific divinity/spirit for a drug.

Opium, kawa, khat, coca... The list goes on. All of these can and have been used to gain trance states and such. You know bay leaf, the one you can find in your kitchen? In ancient greece, it was believed to be sacred and incite divine inspiration. Yup, it's a narcotic.

But I wouldn't advice anyone to use alcohol as a spiritual tool, as it's addictive and can ruin lives. It's also toxic for the body, as are most of these drugs. And yes, it really is addictive. Don't start looking for justification and reasons to drink alcohol. Don't go down that road. States are just states. What you want is to fill your whole life with clarity and beauty and joy and peace. That can be done without any substances. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by roopepa

[Kksd74628]

Addiction only happens when you enjoy doing bad habit more than the positive outcome of not having it. Reason why you enjoy doing the bad habit is lack of seeing through the illusion what really makes you truly happy. When person talks about how much addictive thing makes his/her life happier from his/her point of view not even I wouldn't stop doing it, because of quitting it having that in mind is stupid. First one needs to get conscious of the harm something makes in his/her life and only after that change can and should happen, because denying fun one thinks addictive thing gives to him/her just makes person to have problems with that thing whole life.

Saying "addict will be always addict" makes only sense if change of behavior is executed before change of mindset. So only telling someone what is benefical and what isn't won't do anything except harm to the person who continues bad habit, because now there is feeling of guilt on top of an addiction. That is extremely important for everyone to understand, because everyone likes giving advices in hope of helping, but bad advices just make things worse. 

VERY IMPORTANT !!

Leave all mental problems including addictions to experts so you don't cause more harm. There is reason why spirituality should be practised only after mental problems have succesfully cured.

Love and happiness to everyone and be careful when you ask or give advice to mental problems : )

[puporing]

From personal experience, alcohol can help one 'peel away the layers' so to speak. If you struggle to go out of your comfort zone, open up so you can connect with others more deeply/directly. Then once you realize that's a possibility with the aid of alcohol, you could do that without alcohol. But of course, integrating the experience after the fact is super important just like other drugs/substances if you're using it for growth.

[BipolarGrowth]

Probably a bad idea. There are so many chemicals more effective and less harmful which can be used for this purpose. 

[Blackhawk]

13 hours ago, Tim R said:

Alcohol doesn't raise awareness, first of all. It can feel like it does, but that is just an illusion - what actually happens is that alcohol dampens our awareness, slows down our thinking, acts as a primary anxiolytic (like barbiturates or benzodiazepines) and produces euphoria. 

It kinda does for me. Some amazing things have happened to me with alcohol.

Why wouldn't it also be a illusion that psychedelics increase awareness then?

Anyway, I really don't give a rat's ass what other people think, I believe in my own experiences, not in what some other people say.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Focus]

10 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

It kinda does for me. Some amazing things have happened to me with alcohol.

Why wouldn't it also be a illusion that psychedelics increase awareness then?

Anyway, I really don't give a rat's ass what other people think, I believe in my own experiences, not in what some other people say.

Do you trip on alcohol the way you do on mushrooms?

[Blackhawk]

1 hour ago, Focus said:

Do you trip on alcohol the way you do on mushrooms?

Probably not. I have never taken mushrooms.

[Leo Gura]

A foolish idea.

[Loba]

I find out where my ego is and stuff, because when I'm drunk I'm not-so-great - so I take those experiences and can grow from them... but beyond that I don't see much use in it, personally.  I can hardly even write when I'm drunk, so it impedes the main thing I enjoy doing.
Weed is better imo.