Which is better .9sedt or ken wilber integral theory

[itachi uchiha]

9sedt is better than spiral dynamic.i do not read ken wilber integral theory.which is better 9sedt or integral theory

[roopepa]

Wilber's Integral Theory includes Cook-Greuters 9 stages of ego development. You can't compare them in such a way.

Edited January 11, 2022 by roopepa

[Carl-Richard]

Which is better: pepperoni or pizza?

[Haribo]

i do not think you can say 9segd is better than sd, it is just different with different purposes.

9segd is an analysis of the structure of the mind, while sd are the memes used by it. Knowing the structure of someone’s mind may give you a more profound insight into said individual’s mind, but how do you do that with a society or a culture?

So SD ends up being much better (as far as i can see) to analyze groups of people and societies overall.

They are both models. Integral theory gets often called a meta model, because it id a model that aids you in understanding when to apply each model.

[itachi uchiha]

6 hours ago, Haribo said:

i do not think you can say 9segd is better than sd, it is just different with different purposes.

9segd is an analysis of the structure of the mind, while sd are the memes used by it. Knowing the structure of someone’s mind may give you a more profound insight into said individual’s mind, but how do you do that with a society or a culture?

So SD ends up being much better (as far as i can see) to analyze groups of people and societies overall.

They are both models. Integral theory gets often called a meta model, because it id a model that aids you in understanding when to apply each model.

spiral dynamic has some flaws.sd is a set of value while 9sedt is cognitive devolopment model.according to sd jordan peterson is stage blue or orange. but i have seen him think 20 years into future which is a trait of strategist .strategist is a higher equivalent stage than orange. also take for example the author jack donovan. he is stage purple and red in sd. but he has good cognitive development.

[Haribo]

He could be, i don’t know him that well. But “thinking 20 years into the future” is not exclusive to any level of cognitive development and means absolutely nothing.

Dude can’t even get what’s happening in the present right, how is he gonna get anything right 10, much less 20 years in the future?

but hey, post the link here so we can talk if he is actually making any educated guesses or if it’s just wishful thinking/ fear mongering of an elderly conservative whose afraid he is gonna get outdated soon.

[Haribo]

just to complete my point, peterson made a tweet saying there is nothing a authoritarian hates more than cars…

Guess what Adolf Hitler, possibly the greatest authoritarian in history was famous for loving cars, having said that multiple times throughout his life.

Tito also loved cars, and so did every dictator to have ruled in brazilian history, from Getulio Vargas to the military dictators of the second hals of the century.

the only question is, is Jordan Peterson so clueless that he made that claim without having any knowledge whatsoever of the subject, or is he straight up lying (and a lie anyone could fact check in less than a minute at that)?

Either way, doesn’t seem very “strategist” to me…

[roopepa]

1 hour ago, Haribo said:

just to complete my point, peterson made a tweet saying there is nothing a authoritarian hates more than cars…

Guess what Adolf Hitler, possibly the greatest authoritarian in history was famous for loving cars, having said that multiple times throughout his life.

Lol

Roads and vehicles are one of the most important means through which propaganda & power is spread across.

The autobahn and Volkswagen was quite literally just a propaganda & power scheme. Though they were also good or economy and jobs etc.

Edited January 12, 2022 by roopepa

[itachi uchiha]

39 minutes ago, Cykaaaa said:

Who says that an orange person can't have a 20 year time horizon?

when i was orange i do not have the ability to think 20 years ahead

Edited January 12, 2022 by itachi uchiha

[itachi uchiha]

@Cykaaaa do u know what is the best way to move to next stage in cook greuter model

[itachi uchiha]

@Cykaaaa strategist to magician

[Haribo]

20 years is a pretty standard timespan for orange planning actually… Of course there may be stage orange people who can’t do that,  maybe due to some trauma or something, but generally they can do that pretty easily.

Orange can naturally plan for their lifespan (up to some 60 years), and some more educated one can plan for their children’s lifespan (up to a 100). And just s there are some who can’t plan up to 20 there are others who go beyond the child’s lifespan, but that is rare.

The one who normally can’t plan up to 20 is stage red (guess what, most aren’t warlords, there are many stage red businessmen)

Just as there are stage orange has many scientists thinking in the 100 years range.

Stage Yellow planning takes it up to another level, with plans being made for problems that may emerge in the next 300 years or more in many occasions.

[itachi uchiha]

1 hour ago, Haribo said:

20 years is a pretty standard timespan for orange planning actually… Of course there may be stage orange people who can’t do that,  maybe due to some trauma or something, but generally they can do that pretty easily.

Orange can naturally plan for their lifespan (up to some 60 years), and some more educated one can plan for their children’s lifespan (up to a 100). And just s there are some who can’t plan up to 20 there are others who go beyond the child’s lifespan, but that is rare.

The one who normally can’t plan up to 20 is stage red (guess what, most aren’t warlords, there are many stage red businessmen)

Just as there are stage orange has many scientists thinking in the 100 years range.

Stage Yellow planning takes it up to another level, with plans being made for problems that may emerge in the next 300 years or more in many occasions.

Damn this is owsome.

But i thought the ability to plan more than 100 years belongs to magician or turqoise

[Haribo]

I mean, it’s probably rare to find stage orange people planning that long, but it’s not impossible.

You can have a businessman planning the business empire that he will build and how he plans his family and successors to tale it to next level once he is gone. But that’s the exception.

60 is a more reasonable expectation for the higher end of orange planning.

Businesses people and investors who make their investment choices way beyond present recessions and the like.

Or visionary entrepreneurs who decide to focus on developing something in a market that may still take decades to emerge and consolidate.

Again, that’s the higher end.

To yellow/strategists/magician these way longer timespans begin to be more common cause they are no longer planning thinking about their lifespans, they think in societal time lengths and ways to fix highly complex systems that are very hard to move in the time of a human lifespan.

One example of someone who is probably in one of these two stages of segd is Daniel Schmachtenberger, i highly recommend checking him out if you haven’t already. He appears in many podcasts on youtube and spotify.