Should the EU build their own army

[PurpleTree]

9 minutes ago, MarkKol said:

Or have someone with massive integrity, that's the most important quality for people with power. Someone like Edward Snowden or Simon Sinek who's teaching leadership and leadership integrity... people like that do exist

it could work in a democracy with many checks and balances where the people have a great education and the politicians are not very egoistic but they're honest and empathic but that seem too utopian

[Blackhawk]

Hahah, no, forget it, no one wants it, except France and Germany maybe. It's a completely retarded idea, and it would be unnecesaary. Why? Because we already have it, except it's much better than a EU-army ever could be, because USA is included in it. I'm talking about Nato.

21 of 27 EU countries are in Nato. And hopefully Sweden and Finland will join Nato soon, then that number would be 23 of 27 EU countries. And the Nato countries Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Turkey are EU-applicants. So please tell me why a EU-army should be created? It would just be a duplication, but just without USA, which is our most important ally.

So the EU-army thing would just be a mini-Nato, it would just break the transatlantic link (the alliance between USA and Europe). And that's Russia's and China's wettest dream.

It would do more harm than good.

Emmanuel Macron is stupid, and a threat to our security, so someone please fire him.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Space Lizard]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

Hahah, no, forget it, no one wants it, except France and Germany maybe. It's a completely retarded idea, and it would be unnecesaary. Why? Because we already have it, except it's much better than a EU-army ever could be, because USA is included in it. I'm talking about Nato.

21 of 27 EU countries are in Nato. And hopefully Sweden and Finland will join Nato soon, then that number would be 23 of 27 EU countries. And the Nato countries Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Turkey are EU-applicants. So please tell me why a EU-army should be created? It would just be a duplication, but just without USA, which is our most important ally.

So the EU-army thing would just be a mini-Nato, it would just break the transatlantic link (the alliance between USA and Europe). And that's Russia's and China's wettest dream.

It would do more harm than good.

Emmanuel Macron is stupid, and a threat to our security, so someone please fire him.

NATO is a relic of the Cold War when the Soviet Union had a universalist ideology and was aggressively trying to expand its borders. These days only one empire is like that: Pax Americana. NATO is no longer necessary; it's just keeping you subservient to the American empire. You aren't actually sovereign if you rely on the USA to defend you. Macron, being a proud Frenchman who wants to make France great again, probably doesn't like that. The reason NATO still has problems with Russia is because it continued to expand eastward up to Russia's border after the Cold War, breaking promises it made to Russia. There is no natural reason for hostility between the EU and Russia or China; economically it makes better sense to be friendly to them, since they are on the same landmass and have a lot of resources you need. Russia's natural gas is cheaper, and China's Belt and Road Initiative is going to connect most of Eurasia. Why would you make an enemy of them to please Americans, who are across the ocean from you and not reliable allies (see Afghanistan, Iraq, etc)?

Edited January 12, 2022 by Space Lizard

[Blackhawk]

@Space Lizard You're wrong about everything in that post, grats.

Nato never promised to not expand to east. You are buying all the russian bs disinformation and propaganda.

Anyway, I know how it's like to discuss with Kremlin/Putin lovers, I do that all the time in other forums. It wont lead anywhere. You will just deny and twist the truth in favor to Russia. You are either a russian, or a useful idiot for Kremlin. So let's end the discussion. I probably wont reply to your upcoming disinformation post.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Space Lizard]

So you enjoy being a vassal of the USA then? That's what the EU is until it can defend itself. Europeans will not be respected players in the world until they take responsibility for their own security. World leaders will just ignore you and go to your daddy in Washington. Props to Macron, he at least seems to get that and wants to get Europe's sovereignty back. You might as well move to the USA, at least you will be where the real power is.

[Blackhawk]

@Space Lizard Of course it would be preferable if Europe wouldn't need USA.

I also think that it would be preferable if I could fly by flapping with my arms.

But the reality sets limitations you know.

[Space Lizard]

What a strange comment. Europe is a large place with lots of people and wealth. Afghans defended themselves from both Soviets and Americans with little more than rifles and sandals. All you lack to defend yourself is the will and the balls.

[Lyubov]

I mean, maybe? I guess theorists of this are scared of Russia? I don't really see the point at the moment. Europe is quite peaceful with every country around it. I don't think Russia will test boundaries as long as Belarus and Ukraine are not encroached upon. These are buffer countries. People need to stop pretended they are autonomous countries or can just suddenly become one. It's unfortunate they don't have the same human rights as the west but the alternative is Crimea situations in them if the west pushes their agenda and gets too entangled in business and strategy with them. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Lyubov

[Lyubov]

5 hours ago, Space Lizard said:

What a strange comment. Europe is a large place with lots of people and wealth. Afghans defended themselves from both Soviets and Americans with little more than rifles and sandals. All you lack to defend yourself is the will and the balls.

Afghans are mountain people with a geographic terrain and a social system the west is not accustom to. They stand no chance to hold it down or really control something that isn't even there to be controlled because things are incredibly different there in so many ways. It's barely even a country, just a bunch of tribes held loosely together. 

[PurpleTree]

9 hours ago, Space Lizard said:

NATO is a relic of the Cold War when the Soviet Union had a universalist ideology and was aggressively trying to expand its borders. These days only one empire is like that: Pax Americana. NATO is no longer necessary; it's just keeping you subservient to the American empire. You aren't actually sovereign if you rely on the USA to defend you. Macron, being a proud Frenchman who wants to make France great again, probably doesn't like that. The reason NATO still has problems with Russia is because it continued to expand eastward up to Russia's border after the Cold War, breaking promises it made to Russia. There is no natural reason for hostility between the EU and Russia or China; economically it makes better sense to be friendly to them, since they are on the same landmass and have a lot of resources you need. Russia's natural gas is cheaper, and China's Belt and Road Initiative is going to connect most of Eurasia. Why would you make an enemy of them to please Americans, who are across the ocean from you and not reliable allies (see Afghanistan, Iraq, etc)?

Another issue imo is that Turkey is in NATO

Even though they have a strong efficient army and i wouldn't want them to side with China etc. but they have an Autocratic leader. What they're doing to the Kurds. They're beefing with Greece etc.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Lyubov said:

I mean, maybe? I guess theorists of this are scared of Russia? I don't really see the point at the moment. Europe is quite peaceful with every country around it. I don't think Russia will test boundaries as long as Belarus and Ukraine are not encroached upon. These are buffer countries. People need to stop pretended they are autonomous countries or can just suddenly become one. It's unfortunate they don't have the same human rights as the west but the alternative is Crimea situations in them if the west pushes their agenda and gets too entangled in business and strategy with them. 

So Ukraines fate is to just be a "buffer country" ? What if they want to join the EU in time?

Or you mean they could join the EU and not NATO

I do understand Russias fears of getting surrounded though

[Blackhawk]

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I do understand Russias fears of getting surrounded though

Fact #1: Russia isn't getting surrounded by Nato. Just look at a map. Russia has a border with Nato of just a few %.

Fact #2: Nato isn't a threat to Russia, because Nato is a defensive alliance. If Russia isn't offensive and doesn't invade other countries then it doesn't need to be afraid of Nato. It's like: a law abiding citizen doesn't need to fear the police. Only criminals fear the police.

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Blackhawk said:

Fact #1: Russia isn't getting surrounded by Nato. Just look at a map. Russia has a border with Nato of just a few %.

Fact #2: Nato isn't a threat to Russia, because Nato is a defensive alliance. If Russia isn't offensive and doesn't invade other countries then it doesn't need to be afraid of Nato. It's like: a law abiding citizen doesn't need to fear the police. Only criminals fear the police.

1. stop calling things "Fact" there are no facts really, everything is perception

2. Russia is also afraid that countries like Georgia, Armenia etc joining NATO which would be a kind of surrounding at least in bits.

3. Not just criminals are afraid of police, also many afro americans etc.

[Blackhawk]

13 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Fact #1: Russia isn't getting surrounded by Nato. Just look at a map. Russia has a border with Nato of just a few %.

Russia is the orange. Green is Nato. I marked the border sharing areas with red arrows.

Nato is surrounding Russia? Hahahahh. So stupid. So many people are buying the Russian propaganda bs.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Blackhawk

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Russia is the orange. Green is Nato. I marked the border sharing areas with red arrows.

Nato is surrounding Russia? Hahahahh. So stupid. So many people are buying the Russian propaganda bs.

do you think i don't know the maps?

smh

thanks for the arrows though  

Edited January 12, 2022 by PurpleTree

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Another issue imo is that Turkey is in NATO

Even though they have a strong efficient army and i wouldn't want them to side with China etc. but they have an Autocratic leader. What they're doing to the Kurds. They're beefing with Greece etc.

What I understand about Turkey is that they actually are a pretty stable country that allows for a nice transition from the west to the middle east and also they have decent relations with Russia. There are a number of factors holding up Turkey from joining the EU though

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

So Ukraines fate is to just be a "buffer country" ? What if they want to join the EU in time?

Or you mean they could join the EU and not NATO

I do understand Russias fears of getting surrounded though

Ukrainian nationalists will absolutely not like what I have to say on this and I do have a bit of a Russia bias on this particular topic about geopolitics so be warned: but I think the best thing for the region would be for the EU to be very careful with how it associates with Ukraine. There isn't some genocide going on there. Is it unfortunate the region is corrupt and people lack liberties? sure, but we gotta pick and choose our battles and how we influence change if we want stage blue countries to further develop without conflict. It's a fairly stable country when it isn't being pulled apart by two powers. It serves as a decent buffer for Russia and I absolutely don't see Russia expanding beyond former Soviet territory or even much into Ukraine if it is given influence over this territory it once controlled. Soft power like giving Ukrainians visa free travel to the Schengen is fine and I see positive change happening if they gave Russians visa free travel to the Schengen region as well. This army stuff like providing Ukraine with military support is not a good idea at all.

[Space Lizard]

Quote

Fact #2: Nato isn't a threat to Russia, because Nato is a defensive alliance. If Russia isn't offensive and doesn't invade other countries then it doesn't need to be afraid of Nato. It's like: a law abiding citizen doesn't need to fear the police. Only criminals fear the police.

Law abiding citizens need to fear abusive police and gangsters who make themselves the police. NATO is more like the enforcement arm of the Godfather across the Atlantic (America) than a legitimate European police force. If NATO was a European police force, it wouldn't be dominated by a foreign country.

The most accurate description of NATO's purpose was given by British general Hastings Ismay in the 1950s:

Quote

"To keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down,"

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Space Lizard

[Lyubov]

18 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Fact #1: Russia isn't getting surrounded by Nato. Just look at a map. Russia has a border with Nato of just a few %.

Fact #2: Nato isn't a threat to Russia, because Nato is a defensive alliance. If Russia isn't offensive and doesn't invade other countries then it doesn't need to be afraid of Nato. It's like: a law abiding citizen doesn't need to fear the police. Only criminals fear the police.

#1 Ukraine joining NATO would basically give a clear entrance through the steppe to the heart of Russia. It is absolutely not in their best interest to have their neighbors aligned with nations that have a history of setting up aggressive military waypoints leading to their capital. 

#2 From the spiral perspective, in a way it is. EU is Orange with a bit of blue and green. Russia is Blue with a bit of Orange and Red. The society's way of life is challenged having such different norms sitting right next to them. If the police are coming up to you and waving their guns in your face then yes you will feel threatened. 

[Blackhawk]

@Lyubov Even if Ukraine, Belarus, and Finland would join Nato: not even then would Russia be surrounded. Not even close.

[Lyubov]

4 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@Lyubov Even if Ukraine, Belarus, and Finland would join Nato: not even then would Russia be surrounded. Not even close.

It absolutely would. Russia is basically impenetrable from the south, north and east. You are aiming at the head of a turtle with those countries in NATO.