Should the EU build their own army

[PurpleTree]

 

Personally i'm torn on this

in one way yes it could be a good thing, more autonomy, sovereignty etc. in another way for example France is involved in many conflicts.

I wouldn't want an EU army to go around the world and play world police, meddling in different conflicts.

Also Macron imo has a few good ideas and some horrible ideas.

[Zeroguy]

No because ain't gonna work.

[Tim R]

I highly doubt it. "The EU" mainly consists of Germany and France and Germany's army is lacking already, so whatever army "the EU" would come up with, it would be nonsense... An army against who, anyway? The EU has enough problems to deal with within its own boundaries. Against Russia? Sure..

[PurpleTree]

3 hours ago, Tim R said:

I highly doubt it. "The EU" mainly consists of Germany and France and Germany's army is lacking already, so whatever army "the EU" would come up with, it would be nonsense... An army against who, anyway? The EU has enough problems to deal with within its own boundaries. Against Russia? Sure..

not really the EU has 450 million people

while France and Germany together only have about 150 million

but sure France has the strongest army in the EU and Germany the strongest economy

[Space Lizard]

Why do nations want to join into these larger unions, which can easily turn into tyrannical, expansionist empires? Does Europe want to be another Rome? What’s wrong with preserving your sovereignty and culture and minding your own business? I think Macron is a dangerous guy, with a bit of a Napoleon complex and dreams of imperial glory. Europe doesn’t need an EU, let alone an EU army.

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Space Lizard said:

Why do nations want to join into these larger unions, which can easily turn into tyrannical, expansionist empires? Does Europe want to be another Rome? What’s wrong with preserving your sovereignty and culture and minding your own business? I think Macron is a dangerous guy, with a bit of a Napoleon complex and dreams of imperial glory. Europe doesn’t need an EU, let alone an EU army.

because in todays world you can get bullied by the big guys if you're small and insignificant

also it makes many things easier like travelling, business etc.

although there are also some issues with it sure

 

[Roy]

Well Germany basically leads the EU, and given their history I don't think Germany should ever be allowed to have a standing army again.

So that'll be a hard no from me chief lol.

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Roy said:

Well Germany basically leads the EU, and given their history I don't think Germany should ever be allowed to have a standing army again.

So that'll be a hard no from me chief lol.

i mean the same could be said for the US and many other countries though  

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

The "oh please, protect my precious culture" mindset is exactly one of the things that halts the progress of humanity.

that's what stalinists, maoists etc. said imo and it turned out pretty bad

 

[Roy]

29 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

i mean the same could be said for the US and many other countries though

True, but the US and other countries didn't antagonize or start either World War.

There is something uniquely twisted about the German psyche/culture.

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Roy said:

True, but the US and other countries didn't antagonize either World War.

but they were the only country which did drop nukes on another country (killing children, women and all)

started wars based on lies

agent orange

bombing weddings with drones

toppled democratically elected governments and supported right wing dictators

supported mass killings  (for example in indonesia)

the list is endless and all of this since ww2

 

not a huge fan of Germany btw. and think they hold far too much power in the EU

but really don't think they'll start a ww, 70 yrs is a long time ago but i guess you weren't fully being serious anyways

they are "tame" now imo

 

 

[Tim R]

42 minutes ago, Roy said:

Well Germany basically leads the EU, and given their history I don't think Germany should ever be allowed to have a standing army again.

@Roy Lol, why that? Germany today and Germany 80 years ago are nothing like each other.

[Tim R]

9 minutes ago, Roy said:

There is something uniquely twisted about the German psyche/culture.

What are you talking about my man??

[Space Lizard]

37 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

World is in a process of uniting, whether you like it or not. Given that humanity survives, the whole world will eventually unite into a single state. It's only a matter of time.

I seriously doubt it. And why would anyone want that? Imagine if that state gets taken over by some Stalin type; now you've got global dictatorship, and no states that can oppose it. Sounds like a very bad idea to me (unless you're a tyrant).

Quote

The "oh please, protect my precious culture" mindset is exactly one of the things that halts the progress of humanity.

How so? Do you define progress as "everyone uniting and no one having distinct cultures"? Are you hoping for some Borg-like collective where everyone is the same? Sorry, that's not my idea of progress, or anything desirable. But it does show how "progressive" thinking can become the basis for totalitarianism and tyranny. Stalin thought he was uniting humanity and bringing progress--as he piled up millions of bodies.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Space Lizard

[Roy]

3 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Germany today and Germany 80 years ago are nothing like each other.

I agree.

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

You'd never be able to unite the world by being a cruel king or dictator. Many have tried, all of them failed.

You're mixing apples and oranges. Stalin's or Lenin's ideas are totally irrelevant here. Again, you cannot rule the world by being a murderous dictator, it's not gonna last. Someone's gonna overthrow you eventually, unless you get to a 1984 type of perfect totalitarianism, where power is mantained for the sake of power, and everyone is controlling everyone. But such a world would not be rewarding for a dictator, so it's not gonna happen. I have more fear from AI takeover, than potential 1984 Orwelian dictatorship.

do you think xi will be overthrown?

don't think so

especially with mass surveillance etc.

and soon all this tech will be everywhere if a tyrant is ruling there's almost no way then to do anything about it

[Space Lizard]

21 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

You'd never be able to unite the world by being a cruel king or dictator. Many have tried, all of them failed.

The point is if you set up a system of global government, it's only a matter of time before some Stalin type takes it over. History shows that no matter what kind of system you set up, this can happen. So building a global government creates the architecture for a future global dictator. Doesn't seem like a good idea. As someone said above, if we had a Chinese style system ruling the world, who could overthrow Xi? Since we don't know how to build a system immune to tyrants, it's a bad idea to rely on one government. The best defense we have is multi-polarity; many states and systems that can prevent any one dictator from taking over the world.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Space Lizard

[PurpleTree]

39 minutes ago, Space Lizard said:

The point is if you set up a system of global government, it's only a matter of time before some Stalin type takes it over. History shows that no matter what kind of system you set up, this can happen. So building a global government creates the architecture for a future global dictator. Doesn't seem like a good idea. As someone said above, if we had a Chinese style system ruling the world, who could overthrow Xi? Since we don't know how to build a system immune to tyrants, it's a bad idea to rely on one government. The best defense we have is multi-polarity; many states and systems that can prevent any one dictator from taking over the world.

yea i think if we have some type of one world government, we need some type of benevolent A.I. at the helm

because humans and the human ego will be corrupted eventually 

[MarkKol]

40 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

we need some type of benevolent A.I. at the helm

because humans and the human ego will be corrupted eventually 

Or have someone with massive integrity, that's the most important quality for people with power. Someone like Edward Snowden or Simon Sinek who's teaching leadership and leadership integrity... people like that do exist

Edited January 12, 2022 by MarkKol

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, MarkKol said:

Or have someone with massive integrity, that's the most important quality for people with power. Someone like Edward Snowden or Simon Sinek who's teaching leadership and leadership integrity... people like that do exist

yea but then there could still come a psychopath or tyrant etc. after him/her

like when you have a mostly smart "good" king and then his son is a crazy spoiled lunatic