Is personal development just the next hamster wheel?

[blessedlion1993]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:35 AM, vizual said:

You are on a hamster wheel regardless, might as well pick the best one, right?

wisdom

Also, why not enjoy that hamster wheel , pick up 2 bad bitch mice on your way and get some phat ass cheese

[blessedlion1993]

Last thing ill say is it can be a hamster wheel if you don't have the right intention. 

Why are you even doing it?

If there isn't a spiritual or emotional motivation , then it's never going to make you happy. Youll have the hot gf, money and confidence but still feel uneasy.

I have used personal development solely for spiritual development and the fruits of that have blown my mind. Opening to Love, God & your Power are, to me, what makes it all worth it. 

[Matt23]

On 1/11/2022 at 5:35 AM, vizual said:

You are on a hamster wheel regardless

Word.

Though, I would add that, yes try to pick the "best" one possible (w/e you see that as), but also, I think that bringing more and more awareness and consciousness to this "need for the wheel, the chase" can lessen it in degrees over time. 

So that, though you may still and perhaps always be on some sort of wheel (enlightenment, sex, money, feelings, travel, food, love, admiration, belonging, etc.), there could be a possibility that the degree to which you feel compelled to be on the wheel might be able to be diminished.  So, yeah, sure, you still find yourself chasing something, maybe relationships, but you notice that the compulsion to do so is less than it was before.  You don't need it as much.  Maybe, if you go far enough, you can completely let it go, and having that which you chased compared to not having it will be the same to you in terms of feeling satisfied.

[Haloman]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, it's a hamster wheel, but at least in this case you're investing in your life and creating something personally meaningful. Of course this is not some ultimate solution to life, but it's way better than what most people are doing -- which is pissing their life away.

I see most people building families and that's very meaningful for them, but in personal development language it means chimpery and pissing their life away. 

But to juggle balls home alone and going to clubs hitting your 40ties is ok.

Interesting...

[Federico del pueblo]

12 hours ago, blessedlion1993 said:

It would eat away at you regardless of personal development knowledge. Fuck that, get the amazing looking girl, become a successful entrepreneur and rock that James Bond confidence with full cock and balls in hand. 

Personal Development makes it fun to have something to work for, a vision of your highest self. Wtf else is there to do? Go to your normal job with your reasonable confidence and ugly girlfriend, shoot me. Stop limiting yourself

Well said!

[blessedlion1993]

5 hours ago, Haloman said:

I see most people building families and that's very meaningful for them, but in personal development language it means chimpery and pissing their life away. 

But to juggle balls home alone and going to clubs hitting your 40ties is ok.

Interesting...

this is just as judgey as "chimpery and pissing their life away"

Also i have never once in personal development heard anyone say that starting a family is pissing away life... ? Where are you getting this?

Usually that phrase is said about doing drugs, drinking, video games, porn, being a victim, being a sheep

[Focus]

Mate I was just watching this and your post crossed my mind so I had to share

 

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, Haloman said:

I see most people building families and that's very meaningful for them, but in personal development language it means chimpery and pissing their life away. 

But to juggle balls home alone and going to clubs hitting your 40ties is ok.

Interesting...

If you are building a family consciously, have at it. That's a valid path of development.

Most people just fuck and have kids like animals.

[Space Lizard]

22 hours ago, blessedlion1993 said:

And the problem here is.... ?

Do you want to go back to being mediocre? Would you really rather have that been how your life turns out?

It would eat away at you regardless of personal development knowledge. Fuck that, get the amazing looking girl, become a successful entrepreneur and rock that James Bond confidence with full cock and balls in hand. 

Personal Development makes it fun to have something to work for, a vision of your highest self. Wtf else is there to do? Go to your normal job with your reasonable confidence and ugly girlfriend, shoot me. Stop limiting yourself

I understand the sentiment, and probably would've agreed with it when I was about 20. But it's kinda juvenile. You're gonna get old, decline and die, guaranteed, so you're gonna have to come to grips with the fact that this philosophy won't work at some point. This is probably why every wisdom tradition teaches humility and non-materialism; because you will be humbled and realize the futility of chasing material success eventually, one way or another. This whole forum seems to have a rather juvenile take on spirituality, to be honest.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Space Lizard

[blessedlion1993]

@Space Lizard

That might be true in terms of material things, but what about mental fortitude and spiritual growth?

What if your main goal is to build your highest self? Which is an infinite venture, and I'm not saying perfect, I'm saying a fully authentic, fully loved, version of yourself. 

I think it's all intertwined, getting the hot girl, being an entreprenuer (if that's what you want) is just a path to building the person you want to be. It takes a certain person to get the hot high quality girl and run their own business (fact)

You may get older, but I don't think you need to "decline" neccesarily, I mean your body will function well (if you're healthy) up until about 65-70, then sure you won't be able to do the physical activities you used to, but by then you should have built yourself up so well spiritually that you are ready to dwindle down and surrender to the end. 

Actually this philosophy always works, that's a limiting belief. As long as you are breathing you can strengthen and improve your soul. 

 

I think it's good to be humble, but also not to be passive

 

[Seth]

I think things are only a hamster wheel in the hamster wheel.

[BipolarGrowth]

Yes, it is a hamster wheel, but your hamster gets faster doing it compared to other paths. 

[Loba]

Yes it is, don't bother with it.

[softlyblossoming]

@Federico del pueblo No, it isn't. It's only 'chasing' if you are making suffering to motivate yourself to get the thing. If you are satisfied whilst you are engaging in chasing/samsara/survival/living/self-help/personal-development/spirituality/meditation/business/wallstreet/relationships/academics/you-name-it, it will not producing anymore suffering, so you will think of it as just a fun hobby like anything else, and is not a struggle or 'means to an ends'.

If you don't believe that anything you are doing is of any importance, and you don't care about the future or past, etc, etc (listen to The Power of Now, which you can find for free on YouTube which explains more ways to stop caring about outcomes and regrets so much that it hurts you now), then you can do basically whatever you want within limit of common sense & it won't create anymore suffering. 

So, in summary:

1. If you aren't suffering, it's not samsara, it's nirvana.
2. So when you play on the hamster wheel without creating any suffering, it's nirvana.
3. The way to stop creating suffering is all that stuff I just said (not think what you're doing is important, not care about past/future, etc, etc, etc, etc (you can read The Power of Now, author explains the details)).

Most importantly: Self-help and spirituality should make the present AND the future feel good, not only the future. The Dhamma is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end." — Buddha (paraphrased, probably)

[Federico del pueblo]

2 minutes ago, softlyblossoming said:

@Federico del pueblo No, it isn't just the next hamster wheel, that is your victim mindset speaking. A pursuit only becomes 'chasing' when you are making suffering to motivate yourself to get the thing. If you are satisfied whilst you are engaging in chasing/samsara/survival/living/self-help/personal-development/spirituality/meditation/business/wallstreet/relationships/academics/you-name-it, it will not produce anymore suffering, so you will think of it as just a fun hobby like anything else, and not as struggling or 'a means to an ends'.

If you don't believe that anything you are doing is of any importance, and you don't care about the future or past, etc, etc (listen to The Power of Now for free on YouTube which explains more ways to stop caring about outcomes and regrets so much that it hurts you), then you can do basically whatever you want within limit of common sense & it won't create anymore suffering. 

So, in summary:

1. If you aren't suffering, it's not samsara, it's nirvana.
2. So when you run on the hamster wheel without creating any suffering, it's nirvana (which is the meaning of getting off the hamster wheel).
3. The way to stop creating suffering is all that stuff I just said (not think what you're doing is important, not care about past/future, etc, etc (you can listen to The Power of Now, the author explains what I'm talking about here in an easily understandable fashion)).

Most importantly: Self-help and spirituality should make the present AND the future feel good, not just only the future. The Dhamma is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end." — Buddha (paraphrased, probably)

Thanks for all your insights.

I don't know if I communicated this clearly in the first post, but my main issue here was basically just feeling pressured in some way to have to live up to certain expectations and that these expectations can increase when you engage in self help.

So there isn't any problem of whether or not the things I'm doing are meaningful, for me they are.

My conclusion is that I simply have to apply personal development to overcome that perceived pressure of having to achieve certain things or having to live up to certain standards.

I mean of course I want to achieve certain things, I just don't want to feel like there's somebody standing behind me looking above my shoulder, evaluating how well I'm doing and then saying "hmm...I think you can do better".

But in reality there isn't this somebody, there's just me.

Other people actually can affect me to a certain degree with their views (judgements, expectations etc.), but it's my responsibility whether they actually affect me or not, so I just have to let go of this mental pattern of perceived expectations etc.

[softlyblossoming]

@Federico del pueblo While reading your reply, I noticed how poor the grammar was in my OP, so I decided to go back and edit it. Then I realised I had written it like a bit of a bonehead, so I've rewritten it again here, properly this time.

On 11/01/2022 at 1:33 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

I've been wondering this because since I know that self help and personal development exist I have definitely achieved great improvements for myself but I'm also realising that at the same time I have simply raised my standards for what is good enough and when I'm achieving etc.

So basically when before self help I would have been ok with slightly above average results, now, because I have all this knowledge I need exceptional results.

Earlier I probably would have been ok with a cute girlfriend, now the girls must be amazing.

Earlier I would have been ok with a normal job, now I'm gonna "have to" become a successful entrepreneur or something like that.

Earlier I would have been ok with a reasonable level of confidence, now I'm striving for James Bond level confidence, and so on and so forth...

 

From what I've heard spirituality is what's supposed to help you solve this problem, but even here I'm wondering if I'm not just gonna be chasing more awakenings and still deeper awakenings and enlightenment etc.

So what's your take on all of this?

 

A pursuit only becomes a hamster wheel when you rely on suffering to motivate yourself to achieve your goal. On the other hand, if you are satisfied whilst you undertake the pursuit (for example: samsara, survival, self improvement, meditation, business, Wall Street, relationships, academics, or you name it), engaging in the pursuit will not produce suffering, so you're gonna think of the activity as just a fun hobby like anything else, and not as an uphill battle.

Here's how personal development really works:

1. When you are satisfied, you have escaped the hamster wheel.
2. You have experienced satisfaction many times in your life, e.g. your birthday, that friday feeling, winning at sports in school, etc. 
3. You can create the feeling of satisfaction with nothing but your own mind, and under any circumstances.
4. There are several tools you can use to remain satisfied whilst pursuing things that stress you TF out. For example:
   • Listening to The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, which can be found for free on YouTube and Audible (if it is your first purchase). This book is a collection of tools aimed at getting you to stop caring about outcomes and regrets so much that it interferes with your ability to enjoy everyday life.
   • Practicing Leo's Satisfaction Meditation.
   • Practicing meditation techniques that you enjoy doing. My favorite meditation technique is Shargrol's Structured Noting Practice Sample.
   • Practicing the Buddha's path as taught for free by my teacher, Dhammarato. As his YouTube channel has over 1000 videos, I've selected this particular video to share here, as I think it's going to be perfect to get you started: Joy Is A Requirement For Practice | Ashley. You can find his contact information in the description of the video. 

The secret key that unlocks personal development is being satisfied (aka feeling good) right now. Unfortunately, this will take a lot of hard work to actually put into practice in your life, and the effort is unavoidable, but totally worth it.

Most importantly: self-help and spirituality should make both the present AND the future feel good, not just only one or the other.

I will end here with a quote from one of the early Buddhist discourses, that says of the Buddha: "He teaches Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure."

On 17/01/2022 at 3:56 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

I don't know if I communicated this clearly in the first post, but my main issue here was basically just feeling pressured in some way to have to live up to certain expectations and that these expectations can increase when you engage in self help.

I agree. I went through this same exact problem for years. I was still going through it 10 seconds ago, until I remembered that I write better when I'm happy, and following that wholesome thought (wholesome thought just means thinking something that makes feel good now), eradicated every trace of suffering from my direct experience.

On 17/01/2022 at 3:56 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

So there isn't any problem of whether or not the things I'm doing are meaningful, for me they are.

That’s a good thing. We want meaningfulness because not having any meaning in our lives tends to make us feel depressed and anxious. When you feel motivated to do a good thing (in general, but not absolutely all the time, so not as some rule you enforce on yourself), try checking if the reason you feel motivated is because the outcome is fucking amazing or because the alternative sucks ass. Mindset shift. I want you to be motivated by all the good things in life, not all the shitty things. This is the practical application of being motivated by Love (for good outcomes) vs Fear (of bad outcomes).

Now this is super important: Do not EVER beat yourself up for being motivated by the latter. In fact, a good rule when doing personal development is to not beat yourself up. However, it is critical to remember that this applies to not beating yourself up for beating yourself up as well (ad infinitum).

Determining which type of motivation you're drawing power from should take less than a minute, and the way to find out is shit simple: Just check to see if thinking about doing it is causing you to suffer.

If it takes longer than a minute, that’s totally fine and normal at first, but your long-term goal is to know yourself so well that it’s very obvious why you’re motivated for something within about one minute. Do not EVER beat yourself up for not knowing the answer as quickly as you did the last time. Training in a meditation technique called “grounding the emotions in the body” might help with speeding up this checking process (it did for me, for some reason). Here’s a tutorial for that: Kenneth Folk: The Direct Path (Part 1)

On 17/01/2022 at 3:56 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

My conclusion is that I simply have to apply personal development to overcome that perceived pressure of having to achieve certain things or having to live up to certain standards.

That’s exactly correct. You hit the nail on the head. And that’s exactly what I’m trying to get you to do: ease some of the pressure we put on ourselves to do things. Also, stop using the word "overcome" because it subtly implies struggle and effort.

On 17/01/2022 at 3:56 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

I mean of course I want to achieve certain things, I just don't want to feel like there's somebody standing behind me looking above my shoulder, evaluating how well I'm doing and then saying "hmm...I think you can do better".

I’m gonna rip this bandaid off early: ultimately, you are to blame for doing that to yourself. However, if you beat yourself up for doing it, that is not the way. And if you beat yourself up for beating yourself up, that is twice as much not the way (it’s the fucking definition of spiritual bypassing). The problem is making yourself feel bad as a way to get what you want. Some militant types will say that you can solve this problem by beating yourself up even more. I’ll tell you right now, that’s the slow and hard path. The fast and easy way is to stop beating yourself up, period. That doesn’t mean stop being disciplined altogether or some moronic similar variety of all or nothing thinking. Rewatching Leo’s video called Learning = Making Distinctions can help you out a tonne in understanding my next sentence. You literally need to divorce the emotional connection that’s been fused in your mind between beating yourself up and doing what you truly want to do. It sucks that we even have to go through all the BS that comes with such a task, and it's not even really our fault: punishment is a huge part of how most parents raise their kids to be effective members of society, and then school teachers compound the problem.

There’s an old saying in neuroscience: “neurons that fire together wire together.” This means the more you run a neural-circuit in your brain, the stronger that circuit becomes." (read: The Mind is The Map: Neurons That Fire Together Wire Together)

On 17/01/2022 at 3:56 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

But in reality there isn't this somebody, there's just me.

You can have more than one goal at once. You’re not a single celled organism. You’re allowed to doubt yourself and not feel whole. This statement kinda just sounds like some kind of spirituality flavored all or nothing thinking from my POV. The solution is to stop using doubt as an excuse to suffer. It’s possible to doubt without suffering when you’re not attached to the outcome of the inquiry.

The way to stop spirituality from becoming another hamster wheel is to remind yourself that your goal is not to doubt painlessly forever and ever, but only to inquire without pain in this moment. So feel free to worry again later, and you will (period), but not right now.

On 17/01/2022 at 3:56 PM, Federico del pueblo said:

Other people actually can affect me to a certain degree with their views (judgements, expectations etc.), but it's my responsibility whether they actually affect me or not, so I just have to let go of this mental pattern of perceived expectations etc.

To be honest I’m still struggling with that one, man, and I don’t really feel qualified to give advice on it, but here’s my two cents: The problem is the word “just”. Here's an example sentence to point out why this is slightly absurd:

"So I “just” have to let go of xyz? What an empowering piece of advice! Time to "just" let go of my entire sense of self too!" 

Here's another great one: Don't think about pink elephants.

Instead of trying to forget a lifelong bad habit out of existence, I’d start with thinking thoughts about other things to take your mind off of the problem. Then when you’re more relaxed from thinking these wholesome thoughts, it won’t bother you so much. Now that you're happy, and if it doesn’t cause you suffering to do so, you can try to solve the problem of your attachment to the opinions of others by noticing how those thoughts bore a resemblance ANTs (read: 9 Types of ANTs: Automatic Negative Thoughts that invade our relationships and how to exterminate them)

 

I hope this helped answer your question more satisfactorily than my original reply, and just because you sound a lot like me and it's a trap I fell into HARD, I'll add one more tip: if you aren’t happy now, don’t worry about what thoughts are true or not true in some existential or spiritual sense. And if you can’t manage to stop doing that right now, just try again the next time you remember to, and in the meantime: try not to worry about the fact that you were worrying (and then consciously choose to feel good about yourself because what you've just done is stepped off of one HUGE hamster wheel (it's just like we said before: don't beat yourself up over not being able to stop beating yourself up (ad infinitum))). Besides, you can go back and investigate the metaphysical stuff Leo talks about when you are able to ponder such matters without suffering over not finding an easy answer.

I know I said that was the last tip, but actually I have another thing for you to remember: One small step down from a hamster wheel is one giant step down from hamster wheel kind.

 

Hope this helps or made you smile now,

~Robert

Edited January 18, 2022 by softlyblossoming
i wanted to underline the last instance of the word "now" haha :)

[Federico del pueblo]

@softlyblossoming

You should make a living off of giving advice (if you don't do so already). No seriously, I appreciate the effort that went into writing such an elaborated post, so thank you a lot!

And yeah, I kinda feel like I'm getting a hang of not feeling pressured by (perceived) expectations, like I'm gradually giving less of a fuck about it.

Just to give you some background info because you seem like you're genuinely intrigued about self help related stuff and maybe how the brain works and all of that stuff.

It's been a shit ton of work for me to not be bothered by others' standards and expectations, because this was probably my major issue for a lot of time. This was highly exacerbated by the fact that I've been living with a nasty chronic illness for many years that affects the nervous system in a very unfortunate way. So basically my nervous system is in a condition where survival is highly prioritized, meaning that all the pathways for arousal/stress are very strong or overdeveloped, which leads to a state of sympathetic dominance in the nervous system and is also considered to be a dysfunction of the limbic system in the brain.

This exacerbated my emotional symptoms so much that I can't even begin to explain how much work has gone into "overcoming" (sorry) these challenges described above, but I'm very far now.

Luckily I know of effective techniques to affect change on an emotional level myself.

I feel like I only have to keep going because everything is going in the direction I want it to go.

[Shawn Philips]

P development will be your hamster wheel if you wait to take action till you're ready, this moment will never come.

See it as a tool to make your life better, not some state or mastery to achieve.

[itachi uchiha]

personal development is the thing that u wish u were taught in  school. instead u were taught garbage things . the things is , self help has a steep learning curve. to get satisfying result from self help u need to practice and work on it for a minimum of 4-5 years.

[softlyblossoming]

@Federico del pueblo Check it out