Why American Fascism Is On The Rise - Second Thought

[Roy]

5 hours ago, abundance said:

Curious to know when was the last time a legit marxist movement engaged in political violence. 

Antifa. They call themselves Anti-Fascists, but behave in ways MOST akin to Fascists than anybody. It's hilariously ironic. Remember that reality often tends to work the exact opposite of how you think. Like Leo says, the Devil tends to hide himself in plain sight and then lies to your face.

Trumptards, while having a few Fascist elements, could more accurately and contextually be described as Libertarian-Nationalists, with an odd auxiliary appendage of Christian culturalism.

The only thing they have in common is being complete fucking idiots.

They are both symptoms of rampant profit driven, unregulated tech corporations. Without social media being as pervasive as it is, neither movement would exist.

At least not in their current forms.

[Scholar]

43 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Of course fascism is a symptom and not a cause, one that arises for sociological and developmental reasons. Anyone with literacy in these subjects should be able to tell you as much, and I wasn't trying to imply otherwise (quite the opposite in fact).

Yes, fascism is a symptom of other long term systemic issues having to do with socio-economic factors, widespread polarization, and declining social solidarity. But lest we forget, symptoms still need to be attended to or they can be fatal to the patient while you're busy addressing root causes (which takes time).

Also I think you have the impression that I'm approaching this from a conspiratorial angle, when my perspective is sociological and developmental. Address the systemic sociological issues, and you'll begin to address the polarization that's fueling extremism.

Like I said I just don't think you are actually addressing the symptoms, rather you are throwing more fuel into the fire. And it's not that you are approaching this from a conspiratorial angle, but that is what you will look like to the people whose perspective you are invalidating. I think I made my position clear. I think there is no fascist threat, and if it is implicit, it will be so for both the left and the right, at which point we are really just talking about polarization and radicalization. I think talking about all of this as if there was a fascist uprising is doing more harm to the conversation than if you focused your efforts on other issues. Right now, the doctor is making the symptoms worse, the patient is about to enter cardiac arrest because of the incompentency of the medical personnel.

[PurpleTree]

50 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

He is quite delusional and a freak. 

Yea i certainly can't deny that

[DocWatts]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Like I said I just don't think you are actually addressing the symptoms, rather you are throwing more fuel into the fire. And it's not that you are approaching this from a conspiratorial angle, but that is what you will look like to the people whose perspective you are invalidating. I think I made my position clear. I think there is no fascist threat, and if it is implicit, it will be so for both the left and the right, at which point we are really just talking about polarization and radicalization. I think talking about all of this as if there was a fascist uprising is doing more harm to the conversation than if you focused your efforts on other issues. Right now, the doctor is making the symptoms worse, the patient is about to enter cardiac arrest because of the incompentency of the medical personnel.

Again I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, so for the sake of a more productive discussion what do you see as a more productive way of addressing political polarization and radicalization?

Edited January 8, 2022 by DocWatts

[Roy]

Just now, DocWatts said:

what do you see as a more productive way of addressing radicalization and declining social solidarity?

War with China LOL. Leftists hates the CCP because it's authoritarian, the Right hates it because they are taking US great power status.

Just trolling you btw <3

[DocWatts]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

War with China LOL. Leftists hates the CCP because it's authoritarian, the Right hates it because they are taking US great power status.

Just trolling you btw <3

[Hardkill]

 

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Again I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, so for the sake of a more productive discussion what do you see as a more productive way of addressing radicalization and declining social solidarity?

Everyone who can needs to be the bridge between stage orange and green. I think Destiny is doing a good job at this, he is basically pulling people towards the center and bridging a gap that other people are not willing to. The way I see it is that we had a strong pull into green, so much so that there is too big of a disconnect between those people and those who were left behind on the spiral. Social media makes this 10x worse, aswell as leading to people evolving through the spiral without integrating lower stages, therefore creating shadows.

We have a thread on Vaush discussing something with Mr Girl. I think we really need to get away from what Vaush is doing, and really start to adopt Mr Girls way of communication, minus the provocateur stuff.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Scholar

[DocWatts]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Everyone who can needs to be the bridge between stage orange and green. I think Destiny is doing a good job at this, he is basically pulling people towards the center and bridging a gap that other people are not willing to. The way I see it is that we had a strong pull into green, so much so that there is too big of a disconnect between those people and those who were left behind on the spiral. Social media makes this 10x worse, aswell as leading to people evolving through the spiral without integrating lower stages, therefore creating shadows.

We have a thread on Vaush discussing something with Mr Girl. I think we really need to get away from what Vaush is doing, and really start to adopt Mr Girls way of communication.

For what it's worth I don't think the debate-lord efforts of Vaush is productive, and I'm completely on board with building a bridge between Green and Orange. I think your assessment of a societal ego whiplash from a rapid transition to Green is fundamentally correct.

I did watch that Mr Girl / Vaush stream, and I didn't think Mr Girl made a convincing case for the Yellow values he was advocating (there are a million better ways to do so than the topic he chose). I haven't watched Mr. Girl's other content, so perhaps he articulates his points better elsewhere.

Not sure if you're familiar with Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG, but he's a psychiatrist with training as a monk who does a much better job (in my view) of articulating and embodying what Mr. Girl was trying to get at in that stream.

[Scholar]

15 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

For what it's worth I don't think the debate-lord efforts of Vaush is productive, and I'm completely on board with building a bridge between Green and Orange. I think your assessment of a societal ego whiplash from a rapid transition to Green is fundamentally correct.

I did watch that Mr Girl / Vaush stream, and I didn't think Mr Girl made a convincing case for the Yellow values he was advocating (there are a million better ways to do so than the topic he chose). I haven't watched Mr. Girl's other content, so perhaps he articulates his points better elsewhere.

Not sure if you're familiar with Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG, but he's a psychiatrist with training as a monk who does a much better job (in my view) of articulating and embodying what Mr. Girl was trying to get at in that stream.

Yes Dr. K is also great at this, although I think it's not quite the same thing. I'd have to think about it some, but in the thread about vaush vs mrgirl you can see my thoughts on why I thought Mr Girl was revealing something really important. I didn't really see it at first either, I even said so in the thread, but then I watched more of him and thought about it more and it really crystalized something in me that has been kind of growing over the past few years. Some dynamics really became very clear to me in myself.

[Hardkill]

51 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

For what it's worth I don't think the debate-lord efforts of Vaush is productive, and I'm completely on board with building a bridge between Green and Orange. I think your assessment of a societal ego whiplash from a rapid transition to Green is fundamentally correct.

I did watch that Mr Girl / Vaush stream, and I didn't think Mr Girl made a convincing case for the Yellow values he was advocating (there are a million better ways to do so than the topic he chose). I haven't watched Mr. Girl's other content, so perhaps he articulates his points better elsewhere.

Not sure if you're familiar with Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG, but he's a psychiatrist with training as a monk who does a much better job (in my view) of articulating and embodying what Mr. Girl was trying to get at in that stream.

The problem is that these progressives can't be stopped. I think that they have now become a great liability to our country's real progress. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Hardkill

[Fleetinglife]

22 hours ago, abundance said:

 

I thought this was a pretty powerful video summarizing the recent rise of American fascism. I am very concerned about the future of this country and think there is a pretty decent chance we'll see more political violence in the coming years. 

Thanks for sharing this video from Second Thought, it was very educational and filled up on some of my blind spots  and enriched some of my understanding regarding theory.

[DocWatts]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Yes Dr. K is also great at this, although I think it's not quite the same thing. I'd have to think about it some, but in the thread about vaush vs mrgirl you can see my thoughts on why I thought Mr Girl was revealing something really important. I didn't really see it at first either, I even said so in the thread, but then I watched more of him and thought about it more and it really crystalized something in me that has been kind of growing over the past few years. Some dynamics really became very clear to me in myself.

I think there are several avenues to one can take to get to the point that Mr. Girl was alluding to, and not all them are necessarily productive.

Really it wouldn't have been that hard to make that same point in a way that was more palatable to Vaush and his Green audience, as a more full expression of values that they implicitly subscribe to.

For myself, I probably came across as more combative in this thread than I intended to, as it's likely I haven't fully integrated Red (and perhaps some aspects of Blue as well). 

That and the problems we've been discussing are basically happening in my backyard, so to speak, so there's likely some personal bias born from my lived experiences in there as well.

[Scholar]

36 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

I think there are several avenues to one can take to get to the point that Mr. Girl was alluding to, and not all them are necessarily productive.

Really it wouldn't have been that hard to make that same point in a way that was more palatable to Vaush and his Green audience, as a more full expression of values that they implicitly subscribe to.

For myself, I probably came across as more combative in this thread than I intended to, as it's likely I haven't fully integrated Red (and perhaps some aspects of Blue as well). 

That and the problems we've been discussing are basically happening in my backyard, so to speak, so there's likely some personal bias born from my lived experiences in there as well.

I think precisely because Mr Girl does not compromise is actually what communicates something really important. I don't think he is convincing the maximum amount of people, though I think he is showing those who are ready a very particular aspect that if he did compromise would maybe not be communicated as effectively. It's precisely that they resist him so much that demonstrates the point of what he is trying to communicate.

 

He didn't go into the conversation trying to convince people of anything, he isn't trying to get a point across. His point is that he is authentically self-expressing. And that is the point. Everyone who is ready to get it, gets it. Everyone else could not possibly get it. If he "convinces" them, he would be doing what he is trying people to show not to do. There has to be the "Aha" moment, and it cannot happen if there is manipulation going on. It's a meta communication so to speak.

He could not possibly communicate what is he communicating if he wasn't embodying it. The embodiment is the point. And that means being authentic, without compromise, without an attempt to manipulate for the sake of convincing others.

 

See, the whole idea of "We must communicate effectively to convince as many people as possible!", is a Tier 1 solution. It is not solving the actual problem. It is treating the symptom, and actually making some symptoms worse. The actual solution is a quantum leap, it is not playing games, it's not changing positions.

 

I would have not seen what I see now if he had tried to be "convincing" and "more palatable".

Edited January 8, 2022 by Scholar

[Space Lizard]

2 hours ago, Roy said:

Antifa. They call themselves Anti-Fascists, but behave in ways MOST akin to Fascists than anybody. It's hilariously ironic. Remember that reality often tends to work the exact opposite of how you think. Like Leo says, the Devil tends to hide himself in plain sight and then lies to your face.

That was my point also. The real, dangerous fascists are pointing at the patsy fascists (a mostly non-violent rabble) and patsy fuhrer (a clownish narcissist) and calling for a crackdown that will give them more non-democratic power. It's exactly the kind of diabolical deception they excel at. Matt Taibbi has a great analysis of this in his latest post: 

A Tale of Two Authoritarians

Some excerpts:

Quote

Seeing leading Democrats nuzzling the man George W. Bush called “Iron Ass” summed up the essential problem of the ordinary person trying to find a political home in this landscape. Even if you find the Trump phenomenon troubling, his opposition is not only authoritarian, but organized and armed with the intellectual tools to understand and appreciate how the technological elimination of democracy might be achieved in the 21st century.

Quote

On the pretense that new powers were needed to combat the sweeping global threat whose existence 9/11 supposedly proved, Cheney institutionalized executive assassination, torture, mass surveillance, secret prisons, secret budgeting, and the wholesale elimination of congressional oversight over most of his program, turning the world into what one Pentagon adviser who talked to Seymour Hersh back in the day called a “global free-fire zone.”

It was under Cheney’s watch that we turned into a country that snatched people off the streets all over the world, put them in indefinite detention in an archipelago of secret hell-holes, threatened to rape their family members, and resorted to techniques like “rectal feeding” so often that one Guantanamo Bay prisoner had to bring a special pillow to sit in court.

Quote

Cheney’s reappearance and the outpouring of loony commentary describing 1/6 as a “coup” or an “insurrection” (instead of something closer to the American version of a soccer riot) are related. The types of policies that Cheney instituted relied upon the idea that government was capable of making unassailable decisions about, say, who was a real terrorist and who was just a taxi driver or a small-town cop in Yemen. He was successful in taking the courts out of the business of reviewing the detention of human beings because he argued that when it came to terrorism, our “professionals” didn’t make those errors. Cheney’s idea of justice was the same kind of insane authoritarian whack-off fantasy as the “surgical strike,” only even more dangerous because it had wider potential applications.

I mean seriously, Dick Cheney is supposed to give these people anti-fascist credibility? Aren't you even a little suspicious when you see the same stories being repeated simultaneously across all corporate media? Do you recall the onslaught of "Saddam Has WMDs" and "Trump is Putin's Stooge" stories that turned out to be total fabrications? Don't you see how these people operate and what is going on here? These are de facto fascists, repeating Big Lies so they can get more power. Their track record, and the appearance of fascist uber-goon Cheney proves it.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Space Lizard

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

I think precisely because Mr Girl does not compromise is actually what communicates something really important. I don't think he is convincing the maximum amount of people, though I think he is showing those who are ready a very particular aspect that if he did compromise would maybe not be communicated as effectively. It's precisely that they resist him so much that demonstrates the point of what he is trying to communicate.

 

He didn't go into the conversation trying to convince people of anything, he isn't trying to get a point across. His point is that he is authentically self-expressing. And that is the point. Everyone who is ready to get it, gets it. Everyone else could not possibly get it. If he "convinces" them, he would be doing what he is trying people to show not to do. There has to be the "Aha" moment, and it cannot happen if there is manipulation going on. It's a meta communication so to speak.

He could not possibly communicate what is he communicating if he wasn't embodying it. The embodiment is the point. And that means being authentic, without compromise, without an attempt to manipulate for the sake of convincing others.

 

See, the whole idea of "We must communicate effectively to convince as many people as possible!", is a Tier 1 solution. It is not solving the actual problem. It is treating the symptom, and actually making some symptoms worse. The actual solution is a quantum leap, it is not playing games, it's not changing positions.

 

I would have not seen what I see now if he had tried to be "convincing" and "more palatable".

That’s why we may all end up killing each other. Stage Yellow has the view that the world isn’t going to make it because not enough of us can get a long with each other.

[Space Lizard]

39 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

That’s why we may all end up killing each other. Stage Yellow has the view that the world isn’t going to make it because not enough of us can get a long with each other.

Do you ever make any comments that aren't extreme and ridiculous? We're not all going to kill each other. Fewer people are dying from violence than just about any time in history. Reality is never "everyone dies" or "everything is utopia"; it's always somewhere in between. Sounds like you have a bad case of binary thinking.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Space Lizard

[abundance]

3 hours ago, Roy said:

Antifa. They call themselves Anti-Fascists, but behave in ways MOST akin to Fascists than anybody. It's hilariously ironic. Remember that reality often tends to work the exact opposite of how you think. Like Leo says, the Devil tends to hide himself in plain sight and then lies to your face.

 

You didn't quite answer my question. When has Antifa ever tried to subvert a fair and democratic election? 

There were concerning elements during the BLM and Antifa protests for sure, but protesting police brutality doesn't equate to storming a capitol building with the intent to hang elected officials and disrupt certifying the election results. Its even more problematic knowing the Trump Administration had an actual plan to deny the votes of millions of Americans in hopes to stay in power. 

 

 

 

 

[Wildcattt555]

21 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I actually am very seriously considering buying some kind of gun and a bulletproof vest. I definitely want to make a panic room. The more I think about what has happened to our country the more I realize how dangerous it has gotten. I know you guys say that there probably isn’t going to be a civil war within the foreseeable future, but I actually think that as long America seems to no longer be a safe country for anyone to live in given the skyrocketing right wing terrorism in the US. 

What are you referencing? Skyrocketing right wing terrorism? You sound insane 

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Space Lizard said:

Do you ever make any comments that aren't extreme and ridiculous? We're not all going to kill each other. Fewer people are dying from violence than just about any time in history. Reality is never "everyone dies" or "everything is utopia"; it's always somewhere in between. Sounds like you have a bad case of binary thinking.

It used to be true that violence in the US was on the decline. However, violence has now skyrocketed since 2020 due to the pandemic, rise in BLM and antifa riots, ever increasing rise in right wing threats and terrorism since the January 6th capital riot event, and the extreme divisions our country is still facing. These things may eventually be resolved some day in the far future, but by the time that happens all of us alive as of now will have passed away. I really don’t see how any American alive right now will ever get the chance to experience the kind of peace that we once had like during the mid to late 90s or early to mid 2010s.