How Should Society Handle Pedophiles

[Consept]

42 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

@Consept Are the causes for pedophilia psychological or biological? And is it fair to compare pedophilia with homosexuality, which we already factually know is biological? I mean, we can observe gay animals too. I don't see many pedophilic animals.

Im not necessarily comparing it in this instance im just saying that sexual orientation is hard/pretty impossible to change, think about it wouldnt pedophiles want to change their sexuality considering how much trouble it can cause. 

I think any sexuality is probably psychological and biological, it appears that with pedophiles its more psychological as in their development has affected them especially if theyve been abused, but ultimately youre still left with the same question of what to do with them. I dont know how you can judge pedophile animals but you definitely get pedophile, incest and everything else with animals. Incest is very common with dogs and wolves btw. 

Also historically its been part of various human cultures, even today some tribes still have traditions around it. Obviously im not condoning it im just saying that theres an argument to be made that it occurs naturally. 

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

I think it's best to ostracize them. Won't we do the same to a potential terrorist who hasn't blown up a building yet? 

The problem with this is that if you do ostracize them then no one would admit to being one and they wont get treatment that could help them and also potentially save kids. If you seperate pedophilia from child abuse then you can treat the pedophile without judgement. Its like if we take your example and we say all the people looking at terrorist content we're going to lock you up in case you act on it, what would happen? Theyd stop looking at the content or talking about it but theyre still going to have the same obsession, wouldnt it be better to let them talk about it and then help them by maybe deprogramming them or whatever works in that instance?

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, Consept said:

The problem with this is that if you do ostracize them then no one would admit to being one and they wont get treatment that could help them and also potentially save kids. If you seperate pedophilia from child abuse then you can treat the pedophile without judgement. Its like if we take your example and we say all the people looking at terrorist content we're going to lock you up in case you act on it, what would happen? Theyd stop looking at the content or talking about it but theyre still going to have the same obsession, wouldnt it be better to let them talk about it and then help them by maybe deprogramming them or whatever works in that instance?

This has a downside to it. It will increase instances of people who will misuse such privilege just to get attention since they can be carefree that they would be accepted in public. They can say things like"hey I wanna blow up that building or kidnap that kid. But I'm just joking." it somehow leads to trivialization of a serious situation. 

 

[vizual]

If pedosexuality is an innate disposition since birth/early childhood, just like homosexuality probably is, then it should be acknowledged as such. Otherwise you prevent it from being studied any further, you deny the truth of the matter.

And in the case of homosexuality; 'conversion therapy' is deemed ineffective and is now even considered immoral. It's highly unlikely that a homosexual becomes a heterosexual. At least I have not seen such examples where the primary attraction of the same sex transforms into a primary attraction to the other sex.

[Danioover9000]

@Raptorsin7

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I think it's entertaining and refreshing. He brings up good points, and he has a nonchalant attitude I like, and I think it disarms his conversation partners so what he says is more palatable.

I'm skeptical that it makes sense to hold relative and absolute distinctions as you progress on the path. It seems more like a stop gap approach for people who have to yet to embody or realize the truth of the absolute, but I am not sure this is just an assumption. I wonder if even the most enlightened among us hold these kinds of arbitrary distinctions between the relative and absolute, my intuition tells me that these kinds of distinctions are only tenable from an egoic/devil pov.

   So you like the nonchalant attitude in his presentation style? The issue why there might be a problem with a nonchalant attitude is the attitude is also present in personality types that are sociopathic, psychopathic, and narcissistic, and those who are well trained in handling optics and manipulation, so there might be the possibility he's using the nonchalant attitude to actually persuade people to his view.

   What good points does he bring up? Pedophilia, sexual abuse, trans body dysmorphia? These points are talked about elsewhere, in better optics. Are you saying how he talks about them? But the way he talks about them is antithetical to both a debate and discourse. Look at his humour style and his inability to talk at the level of his opposition, it's not that great, and it doesn't disarm people he's conversing with. Even with trans issues he actually seems more charged to talk about than the sexual abuse and pedophilia.

   And it is an assumption to be skeptical of one's ability to hold distinctions between absolute and relative, because some people can hold those mental distinctions.

   

[Consept]

54 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This has a downside to it. It will increase instances of people who will misuse such privilege just to get attention since they can be carefree that they would be accepted in public. They can say things like"hey I wanna blow up that building or kidnap that kid. But I'm just joking." it somehow leads to trivialization of a serious situation. 

No ones saying it should be celebrated or trivialised just seen as a mental health issue if they want to get help and then obviously a criminal issue if need be. 

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

What good points does he bring up? Pedophilia, sexual abuse, trans body dysmorphia? These points are talked about elsewhere, in better optics. Are you saying how he talks about them? But the way he talks about them is antithetical to both a debate and discourse. Look at his humour style and his inability to talk at the level of his opposition, it's not that great, and it doesn't disarm people he's conversing with. Even with trans issues he actually seems more charged to talk about than the sexual abuse and pedophilia.

I think whats interesting about him is that he can look at these controversial issues generally without the emotional, moral perspective that most people talk about it with, also hes willing to do this in public. If you look at previous controversial issues, lets say the war on drugs, unless you were 100% against drugs there was something wrong with you, there was no room for nuance. Now we can see there absolutely has to be nuance which has led to drugs legalised and literally used for medicine, as well the drug issue has vastly improved. This is the thing with public discourse and politics, there are certain talking points where they only come up to say how wrong they are, but the problem is you need to accept the problem first to have any chance of improving it. A lot of the time the emotional attachment people have to an issue skews their objective perspective of it. So in the case of mrgirl i think being detached is actually a great way to discuss things and i think as people like him get more popular youll see the emergence of more yellow people coming through. 

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I think it's best to ostracize them. Won't we do the same to a potential terrorist who hasn't blown up a building yet? 

 

I don't know if ostracization prevents any terrorism from happening. It seems to me that social isolation is more likely to cause terrorism.

 

The issue here is, if a pedophile simply is a pedophile, and you tell him he is evil for simply being a pedophile, then the step to raping children is much smaller, because society already views them as evil, and they already have to keep their nature a secret. If you ostracize pedophiles, all you will basically have is people hiding their pedophilia, which might increase the likelihood of depravity actually taking place. If they were integrated into society, it would most likely be A) easier to monitor and treat them and B) allow them a life where they will feel like they benefit from adhering to social norms.

The more difficult question would be, how could we even achieve this kind of destigmatization without falling into different kind of pitfalls that would negatively effect society, and how can we even talk about this without the conversation immediately being rejected.

Pedophilia is so stigmatized that people who make arguments in defense of pedophiles (not child abuse, just the individuals who are afflicted by this condition), will be suspected to be pedophiles themselves.

 

 

As it stands, we have no idea how many teachers are pedophiles. In my personal experience I had multiple teachers who I suspect had such kind of tendencies, aswell as a school bus driver I remember. We have an opportunity cost, by not shining a light into this darkness, we put children at risk that otherwise might not be.

[Preety_India]

@Scholar in most cases of terrorist acts in America, it's observed that the perpetrator(mostly an immigrant or with immigrant roots) is someone who is physically fit, highly educated, high skilled job, plenty of opportunities, having a girlfriend or wife, well known locally and socially, someone who isn't socially isolated and enjoys the perks of family support but hates western values of liberty and shows intense resentment to western society, is hardly ostracized, in fact given space and respect for his minority culture and status, yet proceeds to blow up a night club or plants a bomb at a race. 

The variables that we ideally assume would be responsible for someone to become violent don't seem to apply somehow, because reality is stranger than fiction, different from our perception. Perceptions are merely illusions. Showing compassion for pedophiles is a perception and a dangerous one, what we think is not usually what actually happens. 

 

[Opo]

Anyone know where did the stat that 90 percent of people who molest children aren't pedophiles came from? 

[PurpleTree]

hmmm good question

firstly try to evaluate how severe it is

give them therapy

maybe mandatory ibogaine

jail but not the punishing kind, just to keep the dangerous ones away from society/children

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

@Consept Are the causes for pedophilia psychological or biological? And is it fair to compare pedophilia with homosexuality, which we already factually know is biological?

I mean, we can observe gay animals too. I don't see many pedophilic animals.

1. Assuming that one's psychology is influenced by one's environment, there is no dichotomy there. Genotypes interact with the environment to produce phenotypes (observed traits/behavior). There is virtually never a 1-to-1 relationship between genotype and phenotype, maybe except for monogenetic traits like eye color (but these can also change due to environmental factors, e.g. being exposed to toxins or infectious disease that changes pigmentation). In other words, assuming there even is a genetic component to homosexuality (which is not clear), it's still both biological and environmental, because genes always have to interact with the environment.

2. We can observe animals having sex with the same sex, but you're saying you don't see animals having sex with prepubescent animals (have you checked?). Either case, that's not pedophilia. It's child molestation. It also doesn't make sense to apply it to animals as the definition has a social/psychological self-evaluation component that only applies to humans: you're technically not a pedophile if you don't feel difficulty conforming to social pressures (i.e. you feel an urge to offend but you can manage it without creating discomfort).

[Yarco]

Once you offend then all bets are off, you're going to jail. But maybe if we were more open and understanding as a society, we could prevent more people from getting to that stage.

Be open about it so that pedophiles can get the help they need or inform those around them. 

Regardless of what mental disorder or compulsion someone has, I'd rather they have the ability to get professional help to either cope with or mitigate their urges, as well as get community support. Not just be shunned from society and have to try to deal with it on their own. Imagine if we demonized schizophrenics and instead of helping them, we just said they need to be locked up once things get so bad that they're wandering the streets talking to themselves. Those who could keep it under control just lived in secret suffering, until things got so bad that they couldn't hide it any more.

We should probably also admit on a societal level that the majority of guys are ephebophiles, that is, we find 16 - 18 year olds attractive. Just an acknowledgement of how we're biologically wired, not any kind of approval or normalization. Then we can take more steps like not allowing male coaches to be left alone with teenage girls.

If it turns out my friend is secretly a pedo, I'd rather know so I can just not allow them to babysit my kid, but not necessarily judge them for it either. Just like I could be friends with an alcoholic, I simply wouldn't hire them to work in my beer distillery, knowing the temptation would probably be too great for them.

People need to differentiate between non-offending people with pedophilic thoughts/fantasies and predators to have a meaningful conversation first, I've seen too many people conflating the two and saying just having the thoughts means you should be put to death.

I do think it's an innate thing like being gay or transgender, with a biological component which is more likely to get triggered/activated by trauma or environmental stimuli. It doesn't seem very moral or ethical to me to universally punish people for compulsions they didn't choose, especially if they don't act on them.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Yarco

[Consept]

5 hours ago, Opo said:

Anyone know where did the stat that 90 percent of people who molest children aren't pedophiles came from? 

I havent heard its 90% but I think it's something to do with people doing it for power or just because they had the opportunity rather than they're sexual preference is kids. If you think about it like people in prison mostly they may not be gay but there's a lot of rape and gay sex going on. It kind of makes sense because even incels don't really rape at least I haven't heard of that being a common thing, so it's usually a power dynamic being played out in most abuse cases. 

[Thought Art]

3-5% of the population… so, intelligently. 

[Thought Art]

23 hours ago, Fearless_Bum said:

Honestly I think first it's important to handle other social issues, then we go to the pedophile stuff. 

It's kinda like asking nowadays "how do we get a space ship into another solar system?" Like we are barely on Mars lol.

We will fix a shitload of social issues first before we even begin to seriously consider how to handle pedophiles. 

No… we need to handle this because there’s a global issue with child sex trafficking, children getting Molested by people in their family/ community…

also… a rather large percent of men at least have some pedophilic interest and carry a lot of fear, guilt and shame with that even if they never act on it and have normal healthy sex lives. 
 

I think it’s a rather large issue. People carry this fantasy that people aren’t attracted to children meanwhile I know so many people who’ve been molested… it’s pretty shocking how little we understand humans.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Thought Art

[sholomar]

15 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I agree with this. You won't find pedophilia in nature. It's a deviance of the mind, specifically generated by some depraved evil minds. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I agree with this. You won't find pedophilia in nature. It's a deviance of the mind, specifically generated by some depraved evil minds. 

 

To a degree this issue exists because sex has been so stigmatized by religions over the generations. What if sex was seen as a gesture of affection akin to just being playful and wasn't culturalized in such a manner as something that was only done by consenting adults?  There's an example of our closest related DNA ancestor called a Bonobo that does just this.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/casual-sex-play-common-among-bonobos

You actually do find it in most animal species. Puppies will start to dry hump and most mammal species begin to procreate at puberty, and puberty for humans is around age 12. If you look back at most past cultures their girls were marrying or having kids at age 12-14...like 99% of cultures.

I'm not sure what to do about it in 2021 I just understand the science and to a degree some of the psychology behind it. I think too many people are quick to throw the word pedophile around. I'll admit as a man I find 14-15 year old girls attractive...of course I don't do anything about it because I find adult women equally attractive and don't need to risk decades in prison and the associated social stigma. In general I avoid children that are not mine these days because of this obsession people have that someone is going to abduct them.

We definitely need to do something about trafficking and abducting women of any age for use in sex rings...the people who abduct women or use fear tactics to keep them virtual slaves need to be in my opinion executed with a knife blade to the throat in a public setting.

Edited January 5, 2022 by sholomar

[Thought Art]

… humans are nature and our ancestors used to mate around sexual maturity… 

 

Pedophilia it does exist in nature obviously… I think we simply need to be willing to look at sex in generally in a mature non dogmatic way and then do what works. Some animals reach physical maturity in like a year or two so it’s not a problem for them. 
 

Keep children safe, and allow men and women to grow up in a way they can accept themselves and keep others safe.

 

Demonizing natural biological processes and animal nature seems stupid to me. It clearly does little to keep anyone safe. 
 

The best thing to do is to remove shame around sex in general and educate people about consent, emotional mastery, human biology and our ancestors sexual history and to allow people to feel comfortable…. It’s gross I know. 

But, by hiding these things and demonizing them it creates hell on earth when really… 

when it comes to sex humans are 99% full of shit.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Thought Art

[fortifyacacia3]

Mr.Girl... I'm scared to even repeat the things he says without breaking TOS. 

He tells Vaush that everyone is scared to admit that the standard preference is 14 years old, and then he asks Vaush to guess what color their panties would be. 

He says he wasn't joking when he said a 12 year old was hot. Destiny's unfathomable charitability to him missed the point. He did not merely say that the show "cuties" successfully sexualized 12y.o children. He said it worked and he thinks their hot. He's said alot of other things I cannot think of at the moment.

Wait till you hear his take on blaming rape victims or his transphobic crusade. 

The entirety of his ideas sound like he's bastardized the Tao Te Ching imo. 

And yes, pedophilia is only bad relative to humans. OK. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by fortifyacacia3

[Carl-Richard]

@fortifyacacia3 Sounds like Vaush has done some work on you ? 

[fortifyacacia3]

@Carl-Richard

50 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@fortifyacacia3 Sounds like Vaush has done some work on you ? 

Exposure to Mr.Girl should be done so much more responsibly, sorry. But mask off on what you're comfortable with. 

[Roy]

While punishment for breaking existing laws needs to be handed out, as a society we need to tone down the excessive hate to the point where either pedophiles that have offended or just have thoughts about it, feel like they have the space, resources, and opportunity to get therapy and help for getting past their unfortunate condition.

It's obvious they shouldn't act on their urges for a list of reasons, but that doesn't mean we need to hate them or blame them for having those urges in the first place. I'm sure pedophiles would love to not feel the way they do, there is probably nothing more internally self-destructive than what they feel, because it is at complete odds with how everyone else wants them to behave.

A pedophile likes kids for the same reason I like black haired women with massive tits. It's just an internal urge they ended up having for one reason or another. But ultimately we are complete victims to whatever we end up being attracted to. You don't wake up and decide what you are sexually attracted to, you just see it and it's a subjective fact for you.

Besides it's not even rational the proportion we ostracize pedophiles compared to other sorts of people. In an objective sense, raping or molesting a child isn't as bad as murdering someone. Yet culturally our reactions and behaviors don't correlate to that for some reason.

They are still human beings that while have made mistakes, still deserve our empathy so they can get better and offer their potential to society.

Only an extremely rare but select few like genocidal war criminals or chronic serial killers deserved to be abandoned and given the death penalty imo.