Vaush debates an actual Yellow person?!

[Scholar]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar Of course the endless debating of morality is part of the total Perfection and must be accepted.

And I make plenty of practical, relative distinctions in good vs bad. Trump is a devil who is bad for democracy. Yet I also see Trump from a higher perspective as part of Perfection.

It is part of Perfection that allows me to say that debates about morality are stupid. But if you decide to do those debates, that will also be part of Perfection. You can't break Perfection. It's Perfection all the way down

My disagreement is not that you do not make relative distinctions, but rather that you have unconscious biases that undermine your goal of harmony and unity.

You have a spiritual bias, you undermine the idea of bias, as if you wanted to achieve full unbiasedness. But reality is fundamentally biased. Every single atom in this universe has bias, without that bias, nothing could even exist, because there could not possibly be something rather than nothing.

 

You would argue that humanity should go beyond morality, and simply act consciously and lovingly. That to me fundamentally misunderstands what Love does. Love simply amplifies and creates bias. Love does not prefer anything over anything else. If you were perfectly Loving and had no bias, you would simply be God. You would not be a human who acts in a compassionate manner. Acting in a compassionate manner, after enlightenment, is only so because of your human bias. Whatever your bias will be, will be how you will act. Some people who have a certain bias will rape people when they get enlightened, because that is what Love will amplify. Raping and torturing another is Pure Love, and only bias could make you prefer to rape someone or to prefer not to rape someone.

 

The construction, your humanity, is the only thing that allows for action, for preference. And that is bias. Evolution will always select for certain biases, and that is why humanity is the way it is, and why it has the biases it does, and why it will evolve the biases it will evolve. What allows you to say debates about morality are stupid, is morality. Morality is preference, nothing more, nothing less. In that way, even the atoms of this universe have a particular moral code. Yes, it is an illusion, but everything is. If you disintegrate this Preference Making Process, you will simply dissolve into Nothingness. That is not what Evolution is here for. Evolution does precisely the opposite. Everything that has bias continues, and everything that has not returns to no thingness.

That is precisely the wisdom of this reality. You cannot use Love to decide anything, you can only use it to energize that which is. And more fundamentally even, all of these biases are Love, so there is nothing to even distinguish here.

What this teaches us is that spirituality is like anything else, a bias. A bias that to be uphold, must survive. For that bias to exist, you have to participate in survival. And that makes you no different from anything else in this existence. And furthermore, you only care about it because you are human. An ant does not care.

 

 

This is a good metaphor for what Love does:

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Scholar

[Ves]

https://youtu.be/OpMdjv-EElU

His days are likely to be numbered, given the state of cancel culture and people's urge to deplatform rather than engage. That, or he might be able to change things for the better if he can survive it.

 

 

[DocWatts]

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Postmodernism is typical Green. It's highly relativistic but lacks a proper meta-theoretical lens of hierarchy or progress, which is re-discovered in the type of evolutionary lens presented by people like Don Beck & Chris Cowan and Ken Wilber (and precursors like Clare Graves and Robert Kegan respectively) and various ego developmental and Neo-Piagetian offshoots (e.g. Cook-Greuter and MHC).

David Foster Wallace (an early metamodern writer in the 90s and 200s) put it quite nicely. To paraphrase:

Postmodern deconstruction has been incredibly useful and important for pointing out what's hypocritical, stupid, and cruel. Once that's done, however, postmodernism generally lacks better, positive values it can inculcate in the vacuum of what's been deconstructed. The result is a dearth of sincerity, and in the absence of positive values is a pervasive (and tiresome) postmodern irony, one which scoffs : "How dare you have the audacity to ask me what it is I really mean?"

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by DocWatts

[Fleetinglife]

14 hours ago, Opo said:

 

I couldn't watch the whole debate time-wise because of an upcoming celebratory event for the New Year that I soon need to go on with some friends, but this guy with the way he was able to get under Vaush's skin and hit him up with these questions and respond himself in a seemingly genuine and open way while managing unintentionally from his honest self-admitted POV to immensely trigger Vaush and visibly make Vaush uncomfortable in the certainty of his held positions and views regarding this topic made me genuinely laugh intensely  now for a couple of seconds while watching the elegance of his probing and deconstructing of Vaush's held assumptions and positions.

It was like watching an ice cream ball melt slowly from and into its cone in real-time by the honest radiance and beams of a Sun - the cone being Vaush in this case. 

Though personally, I have some discomfort regarding this guy's positions and held views regarding his perceived ages of sexual attractiveness, as it feels he leaves out or removes the cognitive development and perceived mental and life maturity component in the sexual attractiveness equation but also I respect him a lot for his perceived radical and non-agenda pushing honesty which these popular streamers don't seem to have nearly as enough and severely lack.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[Roy]

@Scholar Great clip! I have a extremely high tolerance for horror/gore/scary things, but the bear scene from that movie I remember catching me so off guard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl5sUEqzcp8&ab_channel=AimlessThunder

[Peter-Andre]

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

He mentioned something very interesting in his talk with Destiny that might be relevant to this. He took some kind of in-depth, 400 questions personality test while he he was in therapy, and he said he scored very high on "naivety", i.e. he generally thinks that other people have his best interests in mind. This was a general theme in both discussions (more explicitly with Destiny) which can explain his willingness to say exactly what he feels without being too apologetic and of course to use the most provocative hypotheticals and sarcastic jokes, because surely, nobody will take what he says and use it against him ?

@Carl-Richard Very interesting. That reminds me a lot of what I used to be like in high school and early university, but I kinda grew out of it. People will assume all kinds of horrible things about you if you just speak your mind unfiltered, even if you don't have ill intentions, so nowadays I'm a lot more careful to contextualize everything I say.

In some ways, it's a shame. I've noticed that even when I'm just thinking to myself, I try to filter the way I think to avoid thinking anything "wrong". I always try to add the right context to things, even in my own mind. It's made my thinking a lot more biased and restricted. Maybe I should try loosening up a bit.

15 hours ago, Opo said:

If I remember correctly he explains it here. 

You new to Vawsh? 

I've actually watched him for quite some time now, although I've slowly started to lose my interest in his videos. That being said, I find that he's generally good at listening to people in good faith. Occasionally I've noticed his bias being a little too strong with some of the guests he's brought on stream, but I don't think it's ever been as obvious as his video with Mrgirl.

[Carl-Richard]

21 hours ago, Roy said:

@Scholar Great clip! I have a extremely high tolerance for horror/gore/scary things, but the bear scene from that movie I remember catching me so off guard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl5sUEqzcp8&ab_channel=AimlessThunder

Annihilation is genuinely the scariest movie I've ever seen. What got to me wasn't really the gore (except the fucked up bear – holy shit), but the context or vibe of disorientation and gradual psychological deterioation (call it "psychological gore"), because it made me feel mentally unstable myself. It's like a nightmare trip.

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, DocWatts said:

David Foster Wallace (an early metamodern writer in the 90s and 200s) put it quite nicely. To paraphrase:

Postmodern deconstruction has been incredibly useful and important for pointing out what's hypocritical, stupid, and cruel. Once that's done, however, postmodernism generally lacks better, positive values it can inculcate in the vacuum of what's been deconstructed. 

Ah great, now it looks like I plagiarized him in my thread about Systems thinking ?:

On 14.12.2021 at 10:58 PM, Carl-Richard said:

What Green struggles with the most is construct awareness. It might be able to deconstruct a lot of Orange systems, both from a rational place and an intuitive place, but it struggles to pick up the pieces, both theoretically and practically.

 

[Hardkill]

@Carl-Richard Hey do think that progressives like Vaush have a little bit of stage Yellow in them?

[roopepa]

On 30.12.2021 at 9:18 PM, Leo Gura said:

12-14 years old

What media and culture often portrays as pedophilia is not the actual paraphilia.

The actual definition of pedophilia is sexual desire towards children before the age of sexual maturity. So I don't think you can explain it by evolution and biological survival. Pedophilia is more like a psycho-sexual disorder.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Hardkill said:

@Carl-Richard Hey do think that progressives like Vaush have a little bit of stage Yellow in them?

If you approach it on a trait by trait basis, technically everybody has a bit of Yellow in them. However, I think this undermines the developmental aspect. You gotta look at the entire package, not just isolated examples. I wouldn't associate Vaush and his ilk with Yellow, but don't underestimate the complexity of Green. Mr.Girl is more or less consistently Yellow in this conversation and you see the contrast to Vaush's Green.

[Carl-Richard]

This one has more Spiral Wizardry. Same set-up: convincing a Green to commensurate higher and lower perspectives, only this time the problem isn't a lack of empathy for so-called bad people (as with pedophiles or nazis), but rather the lack of ability to say "no" to so-called good people: "how can we empathically say no to trans-people?" This angle is obviously a bit more productive than the "learn to accept pedos" angle . It's a bit of a build-up, but there is a beautiful pay-off around the 45 minute mark.

[Scholar]

I am not sure that he is yellow at all, it seems like the way he acts is more due to early trauma and personality.

https://youtu.be/aKx4Y9ErxVA?t=3327

 

It looks like he fell into this kind of role and therefore naturally came to see certain limitations of certain stages. Also you guys have to remember that Spiral Dynamics is based upon the idea of integrating each stage and evolving up the spiral. For much of what you call "stage green" today, is not actually a healthy and normal transition through the spiral, as a lot of people lack earlier stage development like stage blue. You can often see a stark difference between people who had an early religious upbringing for example and reached stage green, and people who never had that in their life. We have not really replaced religions with any other institution that could fascilitate functional stage blue identities.

[Opo]

18 hours ago, Peter-Andre said:

@Carl-Richard That being said, I find that he's generally good at listening to people in good faith.

I think that if this was true most of his videos wouldn't be dunking on conservatives and calling them nazis. 

Quote

Occasionally I've noticed his bias being a little too strong with some of the guests he's brought on stream, but I don't think it's ever been as obvious as his video with Mrgirl.

This is the best example that comes to mind. 

 

14 hours ago, roopepa said:

What media and culture often portrays as pedophilia is not the actual paraphilia.

The actual definition of pedophilia is sexual desire towards children before the age of sexual maturity. So I don't think you can explain it by evolution and biological survival. Pedophilia is more like a psycho-sexual disorder.

Well if we called it hebephilia most people wouldn't understand what are we talking about. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Opo

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

I am not sure that he is yellow at all, it seems like the way he acts is more due to early trauma and personality.

https://youtu.be/aKx4Y9ErxVA?t=3327

 

It looks like he fell into this kind of role and therefore naturally came to see certain limitations of certain stages. 

That's an 11 hour video ?. What early trauma? "Trauma", "personality", "naturally fell into it" – sounds like life to me.

 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Also you guys have to remember that Spiral Dynamics is based upon the idea of integrating each stage and evolving up the spiral.

I know you're making a broader point, but with regards to Mr.Girl, I would clarify that he has demonstrated aspects of Yellow cognition, which is after all what you'll pick up on in a philosophical discussion. Integrating all stages is a much broader project than just cognitive understanding (interpersonal, occupational, financial etc.).

[Fleetinglife]

18 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Annihilation is genuinely the scariest movie I've ever watched. What got to me wasn't really the gore (except the fucked up bear – holy shit), but the context or vibe of disorientation and gradual psychological deterioration (call it "psychological gore"), because it made me feel mentally unstable myself. It's like a nightmare trip.

It was meh for me upon the first watch in 2020, was not very impressed with what I saw. Though I appreciate you contextualizing through this analytical interpretive lense all the themes that I saw in the movie, it helps to explain some stuff I've seen.

[Fleetinglife]

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

This one has more Spiral Wizardry. Same set-up: convincing a Green to commensurate higher and lower perspectives, only this time the problem isn't a lack of empathy for so-called bad people (as with pedophiles or nazis), but rather the lack of ability to say "no" to so-called good people: "how can we empathically say no to trans-people?" This angle is obviously a bit more productive than the "learn to accept pedos" angle . It's a bit of a build-up, but there is a beautiful pay-off around the 45 minute mark.

Btw I greatly thank you and I am in your debt for helping me discover this guy and his very creative and personal approach to various social and cultural topics via this thread -what a figure!  

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's an 11 hour video ?. What early trauma? "Trauma", "personality", "naturally fell into it" – sounds like life to me.

The interview is about 3 hours. He basically explained that he was always like this, and that he refuses to censor himself. It got him into so much trouble in high school that he was arrested because he said "Everyone who says they never thought about shooting up a school is lying.". He goes into further detail how he has an inability to censor himself, that it just feels very uncomfortable to him and that he would rather die.

 

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I know you're making a broader point, but with regards to Mr.Girl, I would clarify that he has demonstrated aspects of Yellow cognition, which is after all what you'll pick up on in a philosophical discussion. Integrating all stages is a much broader project than just cognitive understanding (interpersonal, occupational, financial etc.).

Fair enough.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Scholar

[Roy]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I would clarify that he has demonstrated aspects of Yellow cognition, which is after all what you'll pick up on in a philosophical discussion. Integrating all stages is a much broader project than just cognitive understanding (interpersonal, occupational, financial etc.).

I've gone down a bit of a mrgirl rabbit-hole the past few days. I've noticed a particular but important difference between him and everyone else is he isn't concerned so much with the "conquering" aspects the Tier 1 stages seem to have, his goal is to figure out the dynamics between all the different modes of thinking and expose those dynamics in a way that gets people to reflect and tone down their judgmental inhibitions.

In a way it's actually quite amusing seeing people react to him. He seems to serve an effective role of shining a light on the dark aspects of the cultural psyche.

In one interview he said, "If we can get people to empathize with pedophiles, we can get them to empathize with anybody."

Absolutely.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

I am not sure that he is yellow at all, it seems like the way he acts is more due to early trauma and personality.

The interview is about 3 hours. He basically explained that he was always like this, and that he refuses to censor himself. It got him into so much trouble in high school that he was arrested because he said "Everyone who says they never thought about shooting up a school is lying.". He goes into further detail how he has an inability to censor himself, that it just feels very uncomfortable to him and that he would rather die.

I know you already technically conceded to the point, but here I go anyway: let's say that he, instead of being plagued by radical honesty, always liked to think deeply about philosophical topics, to the point where it served as a significant trade-off between other aspects of his life, but which nevertheless lead him to where he is now (e.g. understanding that there is a place for inclusive empathy). That doesn't exactly invalidate the insight, does it? After all, doesn't this alternative description ring a bell?  I'm saying it's not that easy to separate things like personality or life experiences ("character development") from SD development.