Vaush debates an actual Yellow person?!

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

For most of human history people have been fucking from the point of sexual maturity, which is like 12-14 years old.

And even younger when you consider that most marriages were arranged and lifespans were low.

Now people will call me a pedophile, but those are just some basic facts of human biology and history.

People take for granted how strong cultural and moral norms are and how much they have shifted over time.

I am not making any prescriptions here.

But debating the morality of pedophilia is a very poor choice of topic for a Spiral Wizard type. You are not going to win that game because it's way too loaded.

It's like: "Hey guys, let me introduce you to stage Yellow, where you develop empathy for pedophiles! Who's eager to join me?!"

But overall what this guy gets right is that reality is Perfection/Love, so hating and criticizing others is a form of stupidity. He doesn't yet comprehend how deep the Love goes. There is literally no difference between a pedophile and a saint. But good luck convincing Vaush and his audience of that.

Debates about morality are stupid because badness simply doesn't exist. It's just a relative survival bias. And this is not understood by people who debate morality.

I think this is Naive, the construction and evolution of morality is part of the Highest Consciousness. WIthout it, you wouldn't be here talking about how morality is irrelevant, you would be hunted by a lion and crying about how much it hurts to get eaten alive.

It is precisely because badness does not exist, that it must be constructed. If everyone became Ultimate Consciousness, without any constructed morality, they would rape, murder and enslave each other for fun, because none of that actually is devilry. The only reason why it is devilry to you is because you are a human, and you have been born in this culture, in this time, with a brain that has encoded with the illusion of goodness and badness.

 

You cannot help but undermine different aspects of Isness, that is part of Ultimate Wisdom and Ultimate Good. Debates about morality are infinite Wisdom, and the construction of badness is Infinitely Wise and Necessary and Good. Survival Biases are Good, they are Divine, they are Perfection. People who debate morality understand exactly what they need to understand, they are in Perfect Harmony, in Perfect Union. As are you, as you perpetuate the same thing you critize your brothers and sisters for. You cannot help it, you are the best evidence for how Ignorance is WIsdom.

 

You have your own little biases, that you wouldn't have if you wouldn't be Leo, or Human, or born today and in this time. And you pretend as if they were somehow different from debating morality, or that it was not in the same way stupid. Badness exist as much as anything in existence exists.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Ves said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-UH6VOg4Zo

I will make no claims as to Destiny's position on the spiral, but here is a very recent pedophile talk where Destiny has a detached way of thinking about pedophiles, with empathy for them, and everyone else is extremely mad (they are conservatives). Except for Stardust who comes in at the end. Kind of interesting to see the difference in perspectives (note: Brittany Venti has prior beef with Destiny, partially from this exact same topic, which makes things more annoying and less productive).

Destiny also talked with Mr. Girl on the same issues and had a much more productive discussion. I only posted the Vaush discussion in order to illustrate the contrast between Tier 1 and Tier 2. I think Destiny has an edge up on Vaush in this respect, because he is more of a centrist and therefore doesn't have the same strong normative/activist slant which can be used to stifle more abstract discussions.

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar Of course the endless debating of morality is part of the total Perfection and must be accepted.

And I make plenty of practical, relative distinctions in good vs bad. Trump is a devil who is bad for democracy. Yet I also see Trump from a higher perspective as part of Perfection.

It is part of Perfection that allows me to say that debates about morality are stupid. But if you decide to do those debates, that will also be part of Perfection. You can't break Perfection. It's Perfection all the way down

[Hardkill]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar Of course the endless debating of morality is part of the total Perfection and must be accepted.

And I make plenty of practical, relative distinctions in good vs bad. Trump is a devil who is bad for democracy. Yet I also see Trump from a higher perspective as part of Perfection.

Do you think that Vaush have some healthy aspects of Blue and Orange such as a solid work ethic and personal success?

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Do you think that Vaush have some healthy aspects of Blue and Orange such as a solid work ethic and personal success?

Of course he does. He's a fairly well-rounded guy from what I have seen of him.

He just doesn't have a good grasp of the perspectival nature of reality, especially the perspectives of his political enemies. He falls into the trap of demonizing conservatives too much.

[Hardkill]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course he does. He's a fairly well-rounded guy from what I have seen of him.

He just doesn't have a good grasp of the perspectival nature of reality, especially the perspectives of his political enemies. He falls into the trap of demonizing conservatives too much.

I see. So, even though he has solid Blue, solid, Orange, and solid Green values, he is still unable to transcend to Yellow because he still too judgmental of others who are not like him, especially those who are conservatives and capitalists too much. 

I think like Kyle Kulinski and Krystal ball he also overestimates how many people in the US are progressive or even moderately liberal.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

So, even though he has solid Blue, solid, Orange, and solid Green values, he is still unable to transcend to Yellow because he still too judgmental of others who are not like him, especially those who are conservatives and capitalists too much. 

Yup, he's basically hit the limit of Tier 1 cognition.

He could probably use more work within Blue and Orange to make them solid, but he is limited in his ability to do that work because he's too reactive against it from Green. If he evolved to Tier 2 he would appreciate more the value of Blue and Orange and revisit them to solidify himself. I appreciate healthy Blue and Orange more as I evolve.

[Hardkill]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Yup, he's basically hit the limit of Tier 1 cognition.

He could probably use more work within Blue and Orange to make them solid.

Ah I see. Makes sense.

So, other progressives such as everyone on TYT could also use more work within Blue and Orange to make them solid and transcend to Yellow?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

So, other progressives such as everyone on TYT could also use more work within Blue and Orange to make them solid and transcend to Yellow?

Yes, but it's a Catch-22 because they need to rise to Yellow to want to work more on Blue & Orange.

It's hard to work on something you demonize every day for a living.

[Hardkill]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but it's a Catch-22 because they need to rise to Yellow to want to work more on Blue & Orange.

It's hard to work on something you demonize every day for a living.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to work more on Blue and Orange by doing conservative stuff like heavily practicing religion or owning a dangerous gun. I also, don't want to have to exploit others for my own success.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

by doing conservative stuff like heavily practicing religion or owning a dangerous gun.

It would grow you to shoot a moose, carve it, and eat it with your own bare hands.

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It would grow you to shoot a moose, carve it, and eat it with your own bare hands.

Lol. That's crazy! 

Are you telling me that you had to do shit like that in order to transcend to solid Yellow?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Are you telling me that you had to do shit like that in order to transcend to solid Yellow?

There's no specific thing you have to do.

I just gave you an example that would grow you.

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There's no specific thing you have to do.

I just gave you an example that would grow you.

Oh I see. 

Ok, thank you. Your answers to my questions on this thread definitely helped further my understanding of spiral dynamics and how to apply it to my own life.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I've only watched the first 30 minutes, but I was absolutely blown away by how perfectly this conversation encapsulates the distinction between Tier 1 Green inclusivity and Tier 2 Yellow inclusivity: "we should categorically hate and exclude nazis etc." vs. "we should generally include and empathize all views to some extent." Where has this Mr. Girl guy been hiding all these years?

 

One possible flaw might be if he doesn't have a sufficient evolutionary lens (e.g. "Green > Orange"), because that would just make him a radical relativist. In any case, this is what Vaush interprets him as (which is expected from a Green), also partly because he is an especially honest Yellow who doesn't excessively cloak himself in Spiral Wizardry. Nevertheless, the principled and undifferentiated inclusivity sentiment is a quintessential feature of Tier 2.

EDIT: omg what an ending ??

   Yeah, Vaush is not ready to level up to stage yellow tier 2 cognition.

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to work on something you demonize every day for a living.

This is something that really messed with my mind when I first listened to the conversation, because I've gotten so used to capitulating to the Tier 1 perspective when watching all these mainstream political youtubers, that when somebody suddenly presents a Tier 2 perspective out of nowhere, it completely throws me off. Like, my first thoughts were: "Where the hell is he going with this?", "Is he out of his mind?", "Is he trolling?" 

Now, you guys probably didn't have this experience, because I already planted the idea in your mind that that he is Tier 2 , but only after watching the entire Destiny discussion and 30 minutes of the Vaush discussion, it finally clicked: "wait, maybe he is actually Yellow? " It's like something switched in my mind. It's such a different mode of thinking that when you become accustomed to conceding to especially the normative aspects of Tier 1, a rawly presented Tier 2 meta-theoretical view just looks so pale and feeble in comparison.

This is again without a doubt why Spiral Wizardry is very important when conversing in a Tier 1 environment, because it explicitly tries to make a bridge between these two modes that is more easy to follow and more tailored for the specific person (there is more focus on the meta-communicative aspects of the conversation). I'm not saying that he was completely lacking it, but if he had spent more time on it from the start, maybe he could've gotten more people on board (and maybe I wouldn'tve spent so much time trying to gain traction).

[Kshantivadin]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But overall what this guy gets right is that reality is Perfection/Love, so hating and criticizing others is a form of stupidity. He doesn't yet comprehend how deep the Love goes. There is literally no difference between a pedophile and a saint. But good luck convincing Vaush and his audience of that.

I also felt like the dude isn´t very well versed in communicating, bait claims aside. If he knew how to get his point across I feel like this would of have been a way more productive discussion. Useful to see nonetheless.

I come from a European country and the age of consent here is 14

Edited December 30, 2021 by Kshantivadin

[Danioover9000]

   This conversation is much better IMO:

   Destiny being able to handle this discussion is a good example. Don't be like Vaush and get too triggered, be like Destiny, with his level of logic and some degree of open mindedness.

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

I come from a European country and the age of consent here is 14

Don't wink at me. I am not looking for 14 year olds.

[Carl-Richard]

@Danioover9000 Yup.

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

6 hours ago, Ves said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-UH6VOg4Zo

I will make no claims as to Destiny's position on the spiral, but here is a very recent pedophile talk where Destiny has a detached way of thinking about pedophiles, with empathy for them, and everyone else is extremely mad (they are conservatives). Except for Stardust who comes in at the end. Kind of interesting to see the difference in perspectives (note: Brittany Venti has prior beef with Destiny, partially from this exact same topic, which makes things more annoying and less productive).

Destiny also talked with Mr. Girl on the same issues and had a much more productive discussion. I only posted the Vaush discussion in order to illustrate the contrast between Tier 1 and Tier 2. I think Destiny has an edge up on Vaush in this respect, because he is more of a centrist and therefore doesn't have the same strong normative/activist slant which can be used to stifle more abstract discussions.