Vaush debates an actual Yellow person?!

[Carl-Richard]

I've only watched the first 30 minutes, but I was absolutely blown away by how perfectly this conversation encapsulates the distinction between Tier 1 Green inclusivity and Tier 2 Yellow inclusivity: "we should categorically hate and exclude nazis etc." vs. "we should generally include and empathize with all views to some extent." Where has this Mr. Girl guy been hiding all these years?

 

One possible flaw might be if he doesn't have a sufficient evolutionary lens (e.g. "Green > Orange"), because that would just make him a radical relativist. In any case, this is what Vaush interprets him as (which is expected from a Green), also partly because he is an especially honest Yellow who doesn't excessively cloak himself in Spiral Wizardry. Nevertheless, the principled and undifferentiated inclusivity sentiment is a quintessential feature of Tier 2.

EDIT: omg what an ending ??

[Opo]

Lmao. 

Love this guy. 

I'll have to watch the Destiny discussion. 

Btw I think it would be 18 because people don't want to feel like pedophiles. 

[Lyubov]

I’m an idealist as well sometimes but I am not sure I’m totally anti death. It won’t ever be so black and white but there are ways to consciously handle inflicting death on other humans and it is sometimes necessary through war. Through the courts I’m not sure. I lean latterly towards not ok. There are some people so wrapped up in something violent and disturbing that having them dead may be mentally better for the guards around them. Thing is though the person that pulls the trigger won’t feel ok  it’s tricky. 

[Ves]

2 hours ago, Opo said:

Lmao. 

Love this guy. 

I'll have to watch the Destiny discussion. 

Btw I think it would be 18 because people don't want to feel like pedophiles. 

I've also been meaning to watch this! I think they will get along very well from what I've seen (I watched the gender one), since they can both think about things in a detached way.

[Happy Lizard]

I’m half the way through watching this. 

I’m feeling afraid for my Yellow values now …

This conversation is showing me the shadow of my previous beliefs, I see that the green lens shows no nuance what so ever, it’s amazing, I can’t believe how dumb I was to be led to believe those value memes like I almost had blinders.

poor guy trying to convince vaush to be more compassionate yet, being attacked  from all corners… like yayks !

I can also see how hard it is for Mr.Girl to not go straight away to SD and exploring his positions from there as an exit point. incredible honesty!

 

Edit: I think we are not certain that mr girl is stage yellow or tier 2 thinker. The only hint I saw of him was when he says ‘value system’ thats one aspect of yellow. But could be just an open minded guy who found a niche to make a channel about.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Happy Lizard

[Ves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-UH6VOg4Zo

I will make no claims as to Destiny's position on the spiral, but here is a very recent pedophile talk where Destiny has a detached way of thinking about pedophiles, with empathy for them, and everyone else is extremely mad (they are conservatives). Except for Stardust who comes in at the end. Kind of interesting to see the difference in perspectives (note: Brittany Venti has prior beef with Destiny, partially from this exact same topic, which makes things more annoying and less productive).

[DocWatts]

Meh. I was less impressed than I was expecting, as the talk didn't feel very productive (even aside from it unraveling at the end).

Mr. Girl came across as overly defensive and a bit argumentative, and didn't 'sell' Yellow values very well.

I knew what he was getting at, but he really should have put more emphasis on the process oriented angle of the meta-ideology, and done more to articulate how taking a more compassionate approach towards other ideologies is a more successful way to address societal problems that Green cares about.

Selling Yellow as a more full expression of Green would have been the way to go, instead of the way the conversation actually went.

Edited December 30, 2021 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

For most of human history people have been fucking from the point of sexual maturity, which is like 12-14 years old.

And even younger when you consider that most marriages were arranged and lifespans were low.

Now people will call me a pedophile, but those are just some basic facts of human biology and history.

People take for granted how strong cultural and moral norms are and how much they have shifted over time.

I am not making any prescriptions here.

But debating the morality of pedophilia is a very poor choice of topic for a Spiral Wizard type. You are not going to win that game because it's way too loaded.

It's like: "Hey guys, let me introduce you to stage Yellow, where you develop empathy for pedophiles! Who's eager to join me?!"

But overall what this guy gets right is that reality is Perfection/Love, so hating and criticizing others is a form of stupidity. He doesn't yet comprehend how deep the Love goes. There is literally no difference between a pedophile and a saint. But good luck convincing Vaush and his audience of that.

Debates about morality are stupid because badness simply doesn't exist. It's just a relative survival bias. And this is not understood by people who debate morality.

[DnoReally]

That guy is actually really funny

 

[Opo]

1 minute ago, DnoReally said:

That guy is actually really funny

 

I've listened to this like 5 times in a row. 

[Opo]

36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People take for granted how strong cultural and moral norms are and how much they have shifted over time.

I wonder what causes the norms to change because in Japan the age of consent is 13.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Opo said:

I wonder what causes the norms to change because in Japan the age of consent is 13.

Spiral Dynamic evolution basically.

It's no longer acceptable in a modern complex world to have children at that age because it takes longer and longer to develop into a modern society.

5000 years ago, having a child at 13 was okay because there was nothing else left to learn and life was simple. Today having a child at 13 will destroy your whole life.

The funny thing is, if early humans didn't fuck at 13, none of us would exist today to hate on pedophiles. Literally the human race's existence hinged on pedophiles. Let that sink in.

And people wonder, "But why did God create pedophiles?" So that you could exist today, silly human!

[Raze]

This guy is a troll. He also made a review of the Netflix film cuties and implied he himself was a pedo. He just says things to create a reaction than tried to defend it to get more attention. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

This guy is a troll.

His cognitive style is far too advanced to merely be a troll.

I get the sense he's just self-amusing, basking in his higher perspective of life. I do that myself. Normies can easily misinterpret that as something nefarious when it's really just love and detachment.

[Roy]

You have to realize Vaush and many other online figures absolutely don't have it in their best interest to give up their crusades and develop to the next Stages. Once they get to a certain point - whether that be garnering a large audience, or establishing a consistent stream of wealth from their platform, most people will be content to die on whatever hill they are on. You rarely see people make large intellectual or developmental leaps because to do so involves mostly annihilating their own worldview and abandoning their communities to form new ones.

Imagine everyone in your social circle and your supporters turning on you, what a force to contend with.

This is why so many of these debates are a waste and just hilarious spectacles the majority of the time. Most people only want to selfishly maintain their own house of cards and are too attached to let go and move onto new ways of thinking. It makes the arrogance of these influencers so much more palpable. At least it provides for good entertainment here and there. 

 

[Happy Lizard]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's like: "Hey guys, let me introduce you to stage Yellow, where you develop empathy for pedophiles! Who's eager to join me?!"

 

Just now, Leo Gura said:

His cognitive style is far too advanced to merely be a troll.

I'm starting to develop a liking for the detached approach SD yellow has, it's necessary to roll out the suits and the corporate face in order to find solutions that maintain good cooperation between different levels of development. 

 

what this guy fails at is making it clear what he wants. open mindedness to no end leads to problems. I think he is not aware of that.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

what this guy fails at is making it clear what he wants. open mindedness to no end leads to problems. I think he is not aware of that.

It's going to boil down to a difference in emphasis. Vaush's emphasis is on practical political action and progressive victory. This guy's emphasis is not that, so Vaush will struggle to see the value in it.

The problem is that higher perspectives don't seem valuable or practical. But what isn't realized is that value and pragmatism becomes its own dead-end. Lack of value isn't a bug, it's a feature as you evolve to higher perspectives on life. But don't expect those who are mired in survival concerns to understand that.

Infinite Love is not practical. But it is the source of everything. Absolute Oneness cannot be practical.

[Carl-Richard]

Now we at least have a practical example of why spiral wizardry is important and how presenting a raw version of a radically inclusive value system makes people question your intentions (and sanity).

 

50 minutes ago, Raze said:

This guy is a troll. He also made a review of the Netflix film cuties and implied he himself was a pedo. He just says things to create a reaction than tried to defend it to get more attention. 

The way he was coming off as a bit of a troll in the end I actually interpreted as a genius meta-point: by appearing to take the honest position of the people in the hypothetical ("I think it's 15..."), he further proves that he actually believes in what he says about inclusivity (as if that wasn't abundantly clear already). This is because whatever you think about "pedophilies" now also applies to him, and if you followed his reasoning, it strengthens the idea that you shouldn't categorically hate these people as they can be fully reasonable and honest people like him. Only problem is that most people in the chat probably didn't follow his reasoning, or they don't see the point (like Vaush), or they believe that his now revealed "pedophilic" intentions undermines his reasoning ("you're just a pedophile who wants to normalize it").

[Opo]

48 minutes ago, Raze said:

This guy is a troll. He also made a review of the Netflix film cuties and implied he himself was a pedo. He just says things to create a reaction than tried to defend it to get more attention. 

He didn't imply it, he said it directly. 

He thinks that we should talk about it because ignoring it is not sufficient anymore because kids are doing similar stuff on tik tok as they did in the movie. 

Imagine if you had a little girl today. 

How would you raise her knowing this? 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Opo

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

His cognitive style is far too advanced to merely be a troll.

I get the sense he's just self-amusing, basking in his higher perspective of life. I do that myself. Normies can easily misinterpret that as something nefarious when it's really just love and detachment.

He is an intelligent troll.

He says shocking things to garner popularity, I saw his YouTube channel a while back and it had very little attention until he started baiting bigger youtubers to make videos about him like Vaush is.