Do you feel like this forum is too stage Orange?

[Karmadhi]

Most of the people here are between 17-30 which means they will be more towards orange. Kinda hard to be solid green at 25

[Gregory1]

44 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Most of the people here are between 17-30 which means they will be more towards orange. Kinda hard to be solid green at 25

I'm solid pink at 22.

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Most of the people here are between 17-30 which means they will be more towards orange. Kinda hard to be solid green at 25

That doesn't make any sense. Most younger people are green, the young generation culture is far more liberal. It's the older generation that is orange and is more conservative approach to life. Haha. 

People tend to be more emotional when they're young and also tend to feel than think. As they age, they learn more about life and become progressively more logical since they learn to interpret more with experience, facts and thoughts and less with feelings. We see young teens making mistakes out of emotional decisions because they tend to think less and are driven more by silly  emotions and instincts. Older people are much more thought and facts oriented due to wisdom. 

Your post was kinda totally reverse of what actually happens. It's younger people who are consistently shamed for being too emotional over little things. Because they take everything emotionally out of naivete. 

In fact it's easier to be stage Green at younger age because you feel like a kid with no real responsibility and maturity, so it's the airy fairy stage of life where it's easier to hold values of liberty, freedom, idealism, feminization, feelings over facts. It's the older generation that is less feminized and thinks in masculine ways and the younger generation is more feminized and that's why we have the phenomenon where young generation guys act more girly than old generation men at the same age in their times. With more responsibility and maturity, there is less feminization. If you mean emotional maturity, well that's more like general maturity and nothing to do with spiral dynamics. More of a cognitive thing rather than spiral dynamics. Attaining emotional maturity is like attaining puberty, it's a stage in life, not a stage in spiral dynamics. 

The forum is more stage orange and this has to do with the fact that masculinity is given a higher preference over femininity here. Since majority is male and male oriented thinking.. Stage Green is more feminine, less masculine.. 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Preety_India

[Gregory1]

Just now, Preety_India said:

That doesn't make any sense. Most younger people are green, the young generation culture is far more liberal. It's the older generation that is orange and is more conservative approach to life. Haha. 

True. Doesn't change the fact though that I am currendly at solid stage pink.

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Lyubov said:

This forum has a masculine / male bias for sure. I would say it’s largely because that’s the sort of crowd Leo’s videos attract. It’s very much male oriented and your sort of space that values masculine cognitive expression. I sometimes wish it was more of a space that welcomed different energies. 

Yup. My own experience resonates with this. 

 

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Gregory1 said:

True. Doesn't change the fact though that I am currendly at solid stage pink.

Good for you. 

 

[BlueOak]

Could anyone name a spiritual or practically related teacher for each color on this chart we are referencing.

I have realised what I am seeking, what much of this life has been about, and its to go over each of the states of consciousness, to fill in the holes in my understanding. So any you can recommend would be of great use to me and perhaps others seeking information out.

Thank you.

Edited January 1, 2022 by BlueOak

[Fearless_Bum]

@BlueOak that will not be of any use to you. 

Lol, spiral dynamics is a map, fantasy, it has 0 actual reality. I'm surprised for a place that speaks of using models responsibly, they've completely become hypnotized by them ?.

There's no spiritual ladder to climb, only living aligned with goodness and health. 

A good teacher? Only you know that, what teacher resonates with you? That is the right teacher right now then.

[Preety_India]

24 minutes ago, Fearless_Bum said:

@BlueOak 

There's no spiritual ladder to climb, only living aligned with goodness and health. 

 

How do you know that? Aren't there stages in consciousness? 

I'm a bit confused. Can you explain? 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Preety_India

[Fearless_Bum]

@Preety_India the ego is obsessed with inflating itself and it loves the idea of going up stages. 

The spiritual stuff is actually calming that down and "moving back" into truth. 

Whatever stages there appears to be, it isn't actually a product of moving forward and getting closer to accomplishing something, it's really calming down, slowing the momentum of "I gotta get enlightened!".

Hope that made some sense. 

[Preety_India]

Just now, Fearless_Bum said:

@Preety_India the ego is obsessed with inflating itself and it loves the idea of going up stages. 

The spiritual stuff is actually calming that down and "moving back" into truth. 

Whatever stages there appears to be, it isn't actually a product of moving forward and getting closer to accomplishing something, it's really calming down, slowing the momentum of "I gotta get enlightened!".

Hope that made some sense. 

I don't think that developing through stages  is necessarily an ego thing. I never saw it as getting brownie points for the ego. I saw it as a process of inculcating different perspectives at every stage, more like learning different languages. So the language at Red is different from the language of Green. Yet both languages are equally unique and equally valid. So I can't say stage Red is not necessary in life. 

I really do feel like I'm moving forward the more I think about higher stages. I don't see progress or "progression through" as an ego thing necessarily. For example if I learned the Greek language and I barely know a few words, I would call it the initial stage. Now wanting to progress in learning Greek is more of a pursuit, curiosity, exploration and honing of a skill and might have absolutely nothing to do with ego. You could be doing it because you are passionate to learn Greek, not because you are showing off to anyone that you know Greek. 

Also I never felt that if I progressed through stages, I would reach some form of enlightenment. In fact the opposite happened. The more I thought about higher stages, the less I resonated with the idea of enlightenment. It looked too idealistic to me. It's like I didn't want to be at stage Coral or stage Turquoise because it didn't resonate in a practical sense, felt like it's impossible to think like the people who think at these stages. And enlightenment was never the final goal to begin with. The final goal was to incorporate all stages in little doses and use all of them in different situations in life. I have never believed in the concept of Enlightenment.. I'm not sure about many of the folks here, because lot of the folks here talk about non duality and enlightenment. That didn't make any sense to me. I come from the duality perspective sans enlightenment. 

I'm not sure if you're aware of the person called rali from naked reality. He used to come here a lot couple of years ago and used to constantly challenge Leo on different things. He was not the one to believe in Enlightenment or at least he wasn't very convinced of it. Leo kinda banned him I guess. He was kinda dogmatic. But I liked his perspective where he didn't believe in enlightenment and felt it was just a concept. Also I don't think he was too interested in the non dual perspective either. 

I think that a lot of people are so influenced by the non dual perspective on this forum that they hardly think of the dual one. They simply forget it or consider it as non spiritual.. Remember spirituality is like a crossroads and there are many ways to get there. There cannot be a single way defined as the correct way, that would be too dogmatic and completely locked to the paradigm of duality. This sounds more like spiritual dogmatism rather than the Openness to consider all perspectives, dual and non dual. To me the non dual never made any sense, felt like it's another illusion. Does it mean that I can't be spiritual, just because I don't invest in non dual, well, that would be incredibly narrow minded to automatically assume that only non duality is the ultimate truth. Nope. I don't think that way, I look at them as different schools of spirituality, nothing more, nothing less. But this forum has some dogma of non duality, they consider it the holy grail, which is befuddling to me. Maybe it's the non dual perspective that is causing people to associate everything with the ego .. I personally don't think that spirituality has anything to do with the ego, I see it as a path towards Liberation and higher wisdom that helps live a better life and purification for the soul /karma etc. So all this talk about ego doesn't register in my head at all, it looks foolish and distracting, all the spiritual ego battling in the meditation section looks like a ego gimmick rather than actual focus on spirituality, in fact I believed that people who are highly spiritual would have the least ego because they would find ego battles foolish and distracting, which is never proved by this forum, it's always about the ego here, one of the reasons why I never feel like I fit in here, also I feel weird about the whole spiritual ego thing, because that simply doesn't make sense to me at all, this forum does the opposite and defeats it's own purpose, instead of deflating the ego and being more spirituality oriented, it constantly defeats spirituality and becomes more ego oriented and also encourages other people to take up that. I find it very silly and anyone who is truly interested in spiritual growth will find this place very uncomfortable, weird and funny, my own research into spirituality over the years { I almost spent 3 years in it rigorously}, has helped me far far more than this forum, in fact this forum  would have sidelined me and thrown me off from my actual work/journey had I strictly followed the forum. Lucky me because I never took the forum too seriously, especially the meditation section, I used to sit back and laugh at all the threads in the meditation section, because all I see is some dumbfuckery ego game there, and I'm clever enough to avoid being brainwashed by this forum (for that a big pat on my back, at least one thing I didn't allow to be brainwashed by in my life and that is this forum, usually I get brainwashed a lot easily, but I'm too strict about spiritual matters so I pulled out all stops and decided to never listen to anyone but my gut instinct on spiritual matters and sweet is the fruit of my decisions and hard earned labor, I'm so happy I didn't get suckered into the ego game of the forum, in that regard I'm almost like the doge Meme of the forum because I sit in the background and watch the meditation section and laugh.) It doesn't even look stage Green to me, if I had a name for it, I would prefer to call it stage Foolish .. Because that's what it seems to me. Not trying to be mean, just being critical of how real spiritual stuff gets distorted here. To me real spirituality is self growth, it's  really a private thing, not meant for public chest thumping and chimpery, I see real spiritual growth as becoming more authentic in life, being more aligned with what you truly want, not lying to oneself, seeking the needs of the spirit, understanding the illusory nature of the world and being free from it, investing less in materialism, being more heart aligned, accepting harsh physical truths, and improving one's shadows and biases ingrained by the social structure and being able to get rid of anything that conflicts the conscience, waking up of the conscience, dropping old rigid unhelpful beliefs that create chaos and hate, thinking and becoming more love centric, following the spiritual path despite societal odds and obstacles and staying true to that path amid spiritual challenges throughout life. I see this as spirituality and I never see this being reflected on the forum, instead I see ego games like spiritual dick measuring contest and no real ambition to be spiritual, a hyper masculine approach in deciding who is better than who, I find this not aligned to my thought, antithetical to my approach to spirituality and utterly disgusting If not downright foolish. Sorry if I came across as very critical. 

 

 

[Eph75]

You're conflating different things, and we need to differentiate between learning, development and spirituality. 

You can learn about the stages, that doesn't mean that you develop, it means that you learn theory and based on that theory you choose to think different thoughts and come to other conclusions. 

Development is on the contrary that which serves your thinking, how you think, not what you think, and increasing the complexity in our sense making, which means that we will be able to make up more complex perspectives and find more plausible perspectives that we couldn't make up in the past.

This is not learning about new perspectives and add to a collection of perspectives. That is once gain learning, building knowledge, and possibly being able to apply knowledge into actions. 

Spirituality is separate from development, or rather a separate/different developmental line, not to be conflated with neither the SD stages and ego development. 

Spirituality can happen at any stage of development and enlightenment in particular is about deconstruction and reduction, through the decreasing of complexity rather than the increasing of complexity and nuances that constitutes development, increased complexity of one's sense making, increasing ability to hold multiple perspectives and also including contradictory perspectives in your mind, the emergence of systems thinking and beyond. 

Development will inevitably involve also developing spiritually, or our development stagnates. 

So how do you know if you're just learning about spirituality, or, if you are developing spirituality? 

How do you know if you're just learning about developmental theory, or actually do facilitate the environments in which you develop? 

How do you know that your development constitutes what SD thinks of being "green" or whether you've simply adopted values that are green?

It's not possible to self-assess as we don't recognize emerging development as something concrete,we can't even hold on to it in a sensible way, or it amounts to no more than gibberish to us. And when looking back, after development we can easily recognize past development phases of ours though others.

SD is a tool by which we can help ourselves navigate into our future developmental challenges, along with other tools/models, but not much more. It is more useful to learn about developmental theory in general, and widely so, and from there see how it correlates with SD, not the other way around which inevitably will create misunderstandings and dogmatic paragidm locks. 

Ultimately there's a need to create strong distinctions between developmental growth learning, spirituality and self-actualization. If any of these are conflated or unclear, they need to be distinguished in order to be able to talk and reason about development in a sensible and unconvaluted way. 

Ego has is a very central part in development as it dictated our every perception and poses a lot of limitations that need to be untangled and let go of in order to be able to move forward with development. In that respect ego development happens in parallel with perspective and cognitive complexity development, etc. It simple shows up in different ways when looking at ourselves (and others) through the lenses that different models provide. 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Eph75

[BlueOak]

 @Fearless_Bum

Sometimes I enjoy working alone, sometimes I look for answers or help from others. I find neither approach wrong, just like I see value/flaws in many models or interactions.

This model has allowed me to reflect on who I am and while I don't agree with the premise fully that the way society has developed over the millenia is the perfect method of mapping the modern experience of personal or spiritual growth, it is one method of analysing life and our psychology or spirituality.

During that I have found I lack in blue and green. Collectivism generally. Blue I would imagine was jordan peterson and over the years I have resisted ever listening to the man so the last couple of days I did. I find myself wondering if my next job should be in a more structured or orderly role to experience it more, as that is something I naturally pull away from. I also find the collective aspects of green ideas and concepts somewhat hard to relate to, and so I asked for a teacher that well represented green, I suspect I have also rejected them out of hand. Orange I listened to tony robbins in my youth for example so I could name him as a teacher.
 

Edited January 2, 2022 by BlueOak

[LSD-Rumi]

On 1/1/2022 at 7:44 PM, Karmadhi said:

Kinda hard to be solid green at 25

unless you are greta thunberg 

[Space Lizard]

My thought is that if you're looking for some deep emotional connection to other people, online forums are a poor medium. These places favor the cerebral, the autistic, sociopaths, clever writers and trolls. That's been the case with every internet forum I've ever spent time at, and I've been around a while. Spend more time talking to people in the real world. It's not this forum, it's all forums.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Space Lizard

[Preety_India]

17 minutes ago, Space Lizard said:

 clever writers and trolls. 

What do you mean by clever writers? 

 

[Space Lizard]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What do you mean by clever writers? 

People who have a talent for writing, and like to show it off at forums.

[Preety_India]

29 minutes ago, Space Lizard said:

My thought is that if you're looking for some deep emotional connection to other people, online forums are a poor medium. These places favor the cerebral, the autistic, sociopaths, clever writers and trolls. That's been the case with every internet forum I've ever spent time at, and I've been around a while. Spend more time talking to people in the real world. It's not this forum, it's all forums.

Kinda sad realization. Because I suck at connecting with people in the real world due to social anxiety and most people are on their phones anyway. 

 

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Kinda sad realization. Because I suck at connecting with people in the real world due to social anxiety and most people are on their phones anyway. 

 

If it helps to know, that's a widespread social problem now. Connecting through text on phones rather than in person dialogue. Its all done in your/their head.

I dislike admitting getting older but when I was growing up interacting socially was the norm. Downsides were it was very much based on cliques, and I remember more physical altercations because of the social interaction, but other than those two issues, things were not extended out over time. Feelings were less likely to be left unresolved or at least unacted upon. It all happened in the moment and engaged much more of life, much more of what we are. There is no substitute for being part of a supportive group in person. Anxiety itself is lessened by a healthy collective experiece, they'd have your back and you'd have theirs. 

I am an adequate writer that enjoys living partially from the mind's perspective, but I can't tell you how much I miss the feeling of those days and the energy within group activities experienced in person. Maybe I needed this lifetime to learn the value of that in detail and what I suffered through living in a state of self imposed solitary confinement.

BTW there is nothing wrong with being anxious, I was a wreck at one time, and I started feeling better when I reminded myself of that every time it came up. It stops anxiety stacking on top of anxiety at least. You'll find people that don't care how anxious you are if you take the time to look locally. 

[SamC]

Nothing is to much. The forum is what it is, and will eventually develop to what it can be. The goal should not be to control it being less orange or less green or less anything for that matter.

The goal should be to create an atmosphere where we try to understand all perspectives, no matter what they are.