How do you know if a feeling is good or bad

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

Absolutely! This is it. Thank you! Feeling is just the present moment. Whatever you think of the present moment, it keeps being itself. It does not "respond" it just "does or doesn't match" the description or interpretation I have of it. 

Indeed. 

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

The confusion really came from the idea that feeling is some sort of mechanism that guides. The word mechanism, to me, really implied the definition that Eckart Tolle gave which is not true. There's no "feeling response", there's only feeling/reality/present moment being itself independent of thought. Still, the mind prepares the body for whatever situation it thinks it will face by changing the body's physiology. But that's not a response either, that's more like the mind controlling the body and it is not done "to guide the mind".

You will get different answers depending on where on the path people are and they aren't necessarily right or wrong. It's simply their interpretation of their experience.

Thoughts and feeling have different levels of impact depending on how identified one is to the thought or feeling. Identification is believing that it's true.

If you are identified to the thought "there is something wrong with me" you might look for what's wrong. If you don't identify with it will arise and pass without any impact at all.

If you identify with the feeling anger in a certain situation you might yell and scream. If not then you'll still be calm.

These are of course very simplified examples so the best is if you investigate this yourself.

3 hours ago, 4201 said:

That being said, I can still see how "feeling guides" but in the same way I can see how "seeing guides". But not because "seeing" does something or is part of some mechanism, but just because it stays itself regardless of the opinion we may have of what is seen.

The human body is hooked up to grasp things that give "positive" feelings and push away things that gives "negative" feelings. So in that sense feelings might not always be the best guide. If one looks for that which feel true then yes feeling can be a powerful guide.

[Lyubov]

I never label my feelings good or bad. They are just feelings. They each are valid and important in their own way. They may signify a need of mine looking to be fulfilled, a belief/thought, a way to communicate, something wanting to be expressed, etc. I would say there is a sort of wisdom to them that I just trust, it's largely centered in my heart area. My mind is used for strategizing. When both mind and heart come together it sorta forms wisdom for me. I also try to face fears and accept I'll make mistakes. I don't read into it too much about intuition. Intuition can be a very confusing thing for cognitively heavy expressions of life (people). I think there are many different kinds of intuition as well. I would say don't label feelings as good or bad though or expect them to be some sort of clear roadmap to the good life. 

[4201]

12 hours ago, mandyjw said:

I'd play around with genuine wonder and curiosity about rather than determined focus. Time is a thought, so the experience that "the more time I spend concentrating on something the more effort it seems to require" is actually in fact indicating that you are resisting and believing thoughts more and more. As that thought arises now, and you focus on it, how does it feel? Based in time, a limitation, it's is not true. 

What you suggest looks ressembles more my contemplation practice than meditation. I can try to incorporate it more into my meditation but to me meditation is really where I develop my ability to focus and concentrate as well. While I had little success with maintaining concentration for prolonged period of times, concentration is still something I want to develop.

Good pointer, thanks!

12 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Yes, it all goes together. Negative emotion when not listened to chronically will eventually result in dis-ease. Thought would like to just shoot the messenger. Yes, we store emotions and tensions in the body, the grand design of actual physical muscle tension is good and not a problem, these emotional releases are much stranger and bigger than that, because... we aren't our bodies. Our bodies are a manifestation, manifestation is what comes late. Thoughts are manifesting, emotions are the indicator of what those thoughts are manifesting. The thought itself doesn't matter the emotion does. Because we are only aware now, feeling is what guides thought because to directly feel we must always be now. 

You came to think, explore, contemplate, but as we know, we can get lost in thought, and then it feels bad. We want to return home, like the prodigal son. Emotion, ultimately feeling, is always the way to clear the slate and come home. You're never without feeling, so when you think you are never without emotional guidance. It's what allows you the best of both worlds. Have your cake and eat it too. 

I came here because I wanted to clarify the definition of "feeling" I had been given by various teachers, what I got instead is a whole trial and evaluation of my spiritual practices by the jury  But sure, I do get lost in thought especially in other contexts, and your pointers are useful. Just that my incorrect assumption was a misunderstanding of what "feeling" is and not an unwillingness to feel. 

13 hours ago, mandyjw said:

If I tease you and call you something insulting and you are feeling good and you know that I actually really like you, you'll maybe insult me back and our words will be horrible and a fun time will be had by all. 

If I'm doubting that you actually like me and I'm doubting myself and we have a disagreement and you call me some insult that triggers all that insecurity, I just became aware of something I had within me. I can shoot the messenger and blame you and continue to doubt myself, or I can go "home" and feel it and examine the thoughts. People who are experiencing negative emotion attract others who reflect it, just like the example of the car pulling out in front of me. If I hold in the hatred and the self doubt, rather than opening to feeling I "take it upon myself". All hatred is stored tension taken upon oneself. Thought says it's about another, outside, but it is all against oneself. This is why the "there are no others" pointer is not something that leaves you as some lonely god, but is the essence of love/feeling itself.

You lost me at storing emotions. What do you mean by "storing emotions and tensions" and "the grand design of actual physical muscle tension"? I can relate to moments in my experience where muscle got tensed without me really noticing and then releasing them but I haven't noticed such a phenomena as "storing tension". What does that refer too?

I struggle with such vague and poetic statements about the absolute. It's like misconception hazards. "feeling guides" is less accurate that "feeling is independent of thought" but "feeling guides" is a better seller. So you take newbies and you tell them feeling guides and then they start imagining their body has a special organ for judging thoughts. Then they come to you about it and you're like "stop using your mind just feel", which to them seems like you are validating the nonsense they think about feeling. "feeling guides" without understanding that feeling is independent of thought is just pure dogma. It might help getting people on board with meditation at first, but detrimental in the long-run imo.

So what the hell do you actually mean by the body "storing" emotions? 

[4201]

13 hours ago, Nahm said:

Meditation isn’t an it (separate thing) which could or would get a me (separate thing) somewhere (separate thing / place which isn’t here, isn’t now). That ‘me’, ‘somewhere’ & ‘getting’ are the activity of thoughts, as is ‘someone assuming’. 

Essentially, you’re hijacking even meditation, by mentally framing it as to get the separate self (“me”) somewhere, while meditation stands to be the allowing of that very activity of thought to settle, allowing reality to be seen as it is, allowing the answer sought herein to be. 

Where exactly are you hoping it’ll get ‘me’ to? 

I'd hope it get me to a point where I can do meditation for any duration while actually enjoying it rather than being sick of it after 30 minutes. Such a moment has been achieved multiple times on psychedelics but not while sober.

My sentence indeed assumes that I haven't reached this point, there wasn't a moment where I enjoyed doing meditation sober for a prolonged period of time. I can see it has a positive effect on my life and not doing meditation is basically a recipe for disaster, but I never came to actually enjoy it sober. I'm not saying it's not possible, but just that this particular moment, event or milestone hasn't happened yet. Reaching this milestone is "where" I want to go.

 

[4201]

10 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

You will get different answers depending on where on the path people are and they aren't necessarily right or wrong. It's simply their interpretation of their experience.

Not giving any slack to Eckart Tolle on this one, I feel wronged  He's really literal in implying emotions are physical reactions to thoughts (see the quote in my earlier post). I totally agree with respecting every teacher but I wouldn't be afraid to call bullshit when there's bullshit either.

[WelcometoReality]

5 hours ago, 4201 said:

Not giving any slack to Eckart Tolle on this one, I feel wronged  He's really literal in implying emotions are physical reactions to thoughts (see the quote in my earlier post). I totally agree with respecting every teacher but I wouldn't be afraid to call bullshit when there's bullshit either.

That doesn't seem wrong to me but not all feelings are reactions to thought. 

In what way do you think that it's bullshit? ?

[mandyjw]

10 hours ago, 4201 said:

What you suggest looks ressembles more my contemplation practice than meditation. I can try to incorporate it more into my meditation but to me meditation is really where I develop my ability to focus and concentrate as well. While I had little success with maintaining concentration for prolonged period of times, concentration is still something I want to develop.

You can do concentration practices, and all sorts of things for the mind that are like weight lifting and building strength up. But meditation isn't really developing focus or developing anything at all. If you want meditation to feel good, it's more about seeing thoughts as they arise/paying attention to how they feel. If a thought, noticing "there's a squirrel squeaking outside" is judged as being bad and unwanted, then you might miss the thought that said that thought was bad or unwanted. The judging thought felt bad, the squirrel recognition thought felt neutral. If we are developing a concentration practice, we miss the judging thought, not paying attention to how we're feeling because all we care about is our goal of becoming "one who is more focused." 

This requires openness, which is not a thought (Mandy thinks I'm closed minded, therefore, I'm not good enough, I'm being judged on my practices) but that openness is the very feeling you're looking, for as well as the "way" of meditation. You get to have your cake and eat it too. 

10 hours ago, 4201 said:

You lost me at storing emotions. What do you mean by "storing emotions and tensions" and "the grand design of actual physical muscle tension"? I can relate to moments in my experience where muscle got tensed without me really noticing and then releasing them but I haven't noticed such a phenomena as "storing tension". What does that refer too?

I just had to walk a good distance in deep snow in -20F windchill with no gloves to retrieve a trash can that blew away. Trust me there were tensions of all kinds.  You know how chronic emotional stress and particularly anger causes heart problems? That's what I mean. It's obvious, medically proven and also goes much deeper than that, however, often people read shit like this worry, freak out and really what I'm wanting you to see is you shouldn't have a care in the f-ing world. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it, the last thing I want to do is frustrate you with more concepts. Life should feel awesome. Don't notice the dissonance between how you feel and how you want to feel, when you drop the thoughts that are doing that and truly feel, now, the tension of that thought is released like it never was. You are invulnerably vulnerable. 

 

10 hours ago, 4201 said:

Not giving any slack to Eckart Tolle on this one, I feel wronged  He's really literal in implying emotions are physical reactions to thoughts (see the quote in my earlier post). I totally agree with respecting every teacher but I wouldn't be afraid to call bullshit when there's bullshit either.

You've read a lot of Tolle? How does Tolle talk about meditation, and how do you feel about that? 

Edited January 15, 2022 by mandyjw

[Nahm]

12 hours ago, 4201 said:

I'd hope it get me to a point where I can do meditation for any duration while actually enjoying it rather than being sick of it after 30 minutes. Such a moment has been achieved multiple times on psychedelics but not while sober.

That’s a common misunderstanding on this forum. 

“I hope Frank gets”, makes sense in the light of there being a you & a Frank. 

“I hope it gets me”, does not make sense because I = me. There is not an I and a me. There is not that ‘me’ ‘in a future’ which ‘gets’. There are thoughts about there being a Frank and that me. For clarity’s sake, Frank at least can be pointed to. 

Quote

My sentence indeed assumes that I haven't reached this point, there wasn't a moment where I enjoyed doing meditation sober for a prolonged period of time. I can see it has a positive effect on my life and not doing meditation is basically a recipe for disaster, but I never came to actually enjoy it sober. I'm not saying it's not possible, but just that this particular moment, event or milestone hasn't happened yet. Reaching this milestone is "where" I want to go.

 

This is also a common misunderstanding on this forum. 

State chasing is trying to get to a feeling of a past experience, in the future, while there is neither in direct experience. 

Milestones are experiential, experience, which comes & goes. Experience is one whole, without separation(s). Inspect & see. 

There is ‘something’ to let go of. There isn’t anything to achieve. Achievement is for that ‘me’, the separate self of thoughts. 

Focusing on those thoughts is creating that experience, and the discord of this is felt, and is the belief behind the difficulty in meditation. In letting the belief go (focusing on feeling breathing from the stomach) there is no discord. There is relief.  

When one is willing to remain present, to acknowledge one is presence, no longer interested in the rollercoaster of state chasing (aversion), the emotional scale, a dreamboard, and loa. 

 

“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.” -Jesus 

 

By ‘makes sense’ I do not mean is right, correct or even accurate. I mean alignment. How it feels. 

[4201]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:35 AM, mandyjw said:

You can do concentration practices, and all sorts of things for the mind that are like weight lifting and building strength up. But meditation isn't really developing focus or developing anything at all. If you want meditation to feel good, it's more about seeing thoughts as they arise/paying attention to how they feel. If a thought, noticing "there's a squirrel squeaking outside" is judged as being bad and unwanted, then you might miss the thought that said that thought was bad or unwanted. The judging thought felt bad, the squirrel recognition thought felt neutral. If we are developing a concentration practice, we miss the judging thought, not paying attention to how we're feeling because all we care about is our goal of becoming "one who is more focused." 

This requires openness, which is not a thought (Mandy thinks I'm closed minded, therefore, I'm not good enough, I'm being judged on my practices) but that openness is the very feeling you're looking, for as well as the "way" of meditation. You get to have your cake and eat it too. 

Thought awareness meditation has been working out quite well in the last 2 days, thanks for the suggestion! It also carries "outside" the meditation practice and into the rest of my day as well. I don't need to sit down to be aware of thoughts, I can do at any point during my day.

On 1/15/2022 at 7:35 AM, mandyjw said:

I just had to walk a good distance in deep snow in -20F windchill with no gloves to retrieve a trash can that blew away. Trust me there were tensions of all kinds.  You know how chronic emotional stress and particularly anger causes heart problems? That's what I mean. It's obvious, medically proven and also goes much deeper than that, however, often people read shit like this worry, freak out and really what I'm wanting you to see is you shouldn't have a care in the f-ing world. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it, the last thing I want to do is frustrate you with more concepts. Life should feel awesome. Don't notice the dissonance between how you feel and how you want to feel, when you drop the thoughts that are doing that and truly feel, now, the tension of that thought is released like it never was. You are invulnerably vulnerable. 

I have no doubt thoughts causes tension through behavior and perhaps those tensions can be use to reinforce the beliefs of an emotion. But I really take issue with the word "storage". To me that word have a specific definition and I don't see how it applies here. But I was half-joking, I know your usage of this word "storage" was probably not meant literally. The source of my misconception in this thread was taking things too literally though, so I felt it was fitting 

 

On 1/15/2022 at 7:35 AM, mandyjw said:

You've read a lot of Tolle? How does Tolle talk about meditation, and how do you feel about that? 

I've read only A New Earth from him and I don't remember Tolle talking about meditation that much in the book. I've heard the Power Of Now is better but I'm lacking interest lately in spiritual books compared to non spiritual books.

[4201]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:08 AM, WelcometoReality said:

That doesn't seem wrong to me but not all feelings are reactions to thought. 

In what way do you think that it's bullshit? ?

You are right, I shouldn't blame anyone else for my misconceptions. His quote had nothing to do with feeling at all, feelings are not reaction to thought. If you define feeling like that, it's a thought, not feeling. In his quote he is actually describing the physiological component of emotion, but backward. He implies that the body reacts to what the mind thinks but in actuality the mind controls the body in accordance to what it thinks. He also labels that imaginary reaction as "emotion" when in reality emotion is interpretation of the state a self is in. "I am angry" is not factual, it's merely an idea. When believing the idea of this state, you may react physically to it (tense up your body) but in no way those tensions are "what the emotion is", which is what Tolle says in his quote. In any case, this is nitpicking.

 

[4201]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:58 AM, Nahm said:

That’s a common misunderstanding on this forum. 

“I hope Frank gets”, makes sense in the light of there being a you & a Frank. 

“I hope it gets me”, does not make sense because I = me. There is not an I and a me. There is not that ‘me’ ‘in a future’ which ‘gets’. There are thoughts about there being a Frank and that me. For clarity’s sake, Frank at least can be pointed to. 

This is also a common misunderstanding on this forum. 

State chasing is trying to get to a feeling of a past experience, in the future, while there is neither in direct experience. 

Milestones are experiential, experience, which comes & goes. Experience is one whole, without separation(s). Inspect & see. 

There is ‘something’ to let go of. There isn’t anything to achieve. Achievement is for that ‘me’, the separate self of thoughts. 

Focusing on those thoughts is creating that experience, and the discord of this is felt, and is the belief behind the difficulty in meditation. In letting the belief go (focusing on feeling breathing from the stomach) there is no discord. There is relief.  

When one is willing to remain present, to acknowledge one is presence, no longer interested in the rollercoaster of state chasing (aversion), the emotional scale, a dreamboard, and loa. 

“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.” -Jesus 

By ‘makes sense’ I do not mean is right, correct or even accurate. I mean alignment. How it feels. 

Do you think through "inspection & seeing" and "letting go" I will immediately see what you mean? How long will it take? For instance, If I decide to use my dreamboard, how much dreamboard usage time will it require before I get there?

As much as I recognize time is a concept, the expectation of immediate results seems unrealistic to me. 

Perhaps you want to throw out of the window the whole idea of "progress" toward enlightenment, which is fair. But then what about you? Are you still at the point where you meditated enough you don't need to do meditation anymore? If there's absolutely no such thing as progress, then why would I do meditation and not you? Why would I practice anything if this practice doesn't matter?

[Salvijus]

I thought of another example that may be useful. 

In music there's such a thing as playing in tune and out of tune. If one plays in harmony and in rythm with the band it sounds harmonious and appropriate and beautiful. If somebody plays out of tune and out of rythm it sounds like shit. 

Good and bad are concepts, but harmony and disharmony is existencial.

Just some thoughts I thought I'd share.

?

[WelcometoReality]

4 hours ago, 4201 said:

You are right, I shouldn't blame anyone else for my misconceptions. His quote had nothing to do with feeling at all, feelings are not reaction to thought. If you define feeling like that, it's a thought, not feeling. In his quote he is actually describing the physiological component of emotion, but backward. He implies that the body reacts to what the mind thinks but in actuality the mind controls the body in accordance to what it thinks. He also labels that imaginary reaction as "emotion" when in reality emotion is interpretation of the state a self is in. "I am angry" is not factual, it's merely an idea. When believing the idea of this state, you may react physically to it (tense up your body) but in no way those tensions are "what the emotion is", which is what Tolle says in his quote. In any case, this is nitpicking.

 

Yeah that's a good description. ?

In your example thought seem to control feeling, in others it seems like the feeling you have is the basis of what thoughts arise.

When thinking of a snake fear (feeling) might arise.

When seeing a snake the fear (feeling) might arise which then produces thoughts of what to do to deal with the snake.

Maybe there isn't one or the other that is "controlling" but just the body as a whole which is reacting to external and internal stimuli?

[mandyjw]

8 hours ago, 4201 said:

I've read only A New Earth from him and I don't remember Tolle talking about meditation that much in the book. I've heard the Power Of Now is better but I'm lacking interest lately in spiritual books compared to non spiritual books.

What you wrote below was exactly what I was hoping to get to by asking this, so no worries. 

8 hours ago, 4201 said:

Thought awareness meditation has been working out quite well in the last 2 days, thanks for the suggestion! It also carries "outside" the meditation practice and into the rest of my day as well. I don't need to sit down to be aware of thoughts, I can do at any point during my day.

❤

[Nahm]

9 hours ago, 4201 said:

Do you think through "inspection & seeing" and "letting go" I will immediately see what you mean?

You’d see through meaning. Including meaning for ‘immediate’. 

9 hours ago, 4201 said:

How long will it take? For instance, If I decide to use my dreamboard, how much dreamboard usage time will it require before I get there? As much as I recognize time is a concept, the expectation of immediate results seems unrealistic to me. 

 Yes, time is conceptual, as is realistic & unrealistic, as is that real me in time results are for. 

9 hours ago, 4201 said:

Perhaps you want to throw out of the window the whole idea of "progress" toward enlightenment, which is fair.

As you said, it’s an idea. 

9 hours ago, 4201 said:

But then what about you?

Also just an idea. 

9 hours ago, 4201 said:

Are you still at the point where you meditated enough you don't need to do meditation anymore?

An idea can’t meditate. That’s another idea / thought activity / assumption. 

9 hours ago, 4201 said:

If there's absolutely no such thing as progress, then why would I do meditation and not you? Why would I practice anything if this practice doesn't matter?

The Truth. 

[4201]

43 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You’d see through meaning. Including meaning for ‘immediate’. 

Curious how "I'd" do that. Does that mean I'm not doing that right now?

[4201]

7 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah that's a good description. ?

In your example thought seem to control feeling, in others it seems like the feeling you have is the basis of what thoughts arise.

When thinking of a snake fear (feeling) might arise.

When seeing a snake the fear (feeling) might arise which then produces thoughts of what to do to deal with the snake.

Maybe there isn't one or the other that is "controlling" but just the body as a whole which is reacting to external and internal stimuli?

There is no such thing as a feeling of fear that arises. "Fear" is an idea/interpretation that is believed because of the situation. Feeling is consciousness/the present moment. It never "arose" and was always there, independent of ideas (fear). It just doesn't "follow" the thought that arose.

Thought do not control feeling, feeling just is. Whether you want to say "thought controls the body" or "body controls itself" is fine, but what they control is physiological reactions (sweating, heart pumping, etc.) which is used in some sort of confirmation-bias to validate the idea of fear.

Edited January 17, 2022 by 4201

[Nahm]

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Curious how "I'd" do that. Does that mean I'm not doing that right now?

In not believing “your own” thoughts / meaning, you’d also see through meaning as coming from someone or somewhere else. Notice the believing of the thoughts transpired just before asking. Let it go. Experience not needing an answer because the question is meaningless. ?

[4201]

9 minutes ago, Nahm said:

In not believing “your own” thoughts / meaning, you’d also see through meaning as coming from someone or somewhere else. Notice the believing of the thoughts transpired just before asking. Let it go. Experience not needing an answer because the question is meaningless. ?

Snap, I really wish this hypothetical scenario where I wouldn't believe things be the case. Why would I ever do that? And what are the things I believe?

I can, from logic, conclude that your answer is not needed to do particular tasks and surviving is one of them. But In my current experience, no part of that experience in particular seem a good fit for labelling it the "not needing" part of my experience. I can experience apples, bananas and many things but the experience of not needing seems highly abstract.

[Nahm]

@4201

Just pop in ‘I want x’ instead of ‘I need x’.