Free will, material, chemicals, and imagination...

[Leo Gura]

18 hours ago, m0hsen said:

@Leo Gura Does God know how he is doing his magic (manifesting stuff, will something to happen etc) or the how part remains the mysterious part even for God?

When you are deeply awake, reality simply becomes your Will. It is so direct there isn't a how. The thing itself is the "how". When you look at an apple, that apple simply IS the how. There isn't any process. The "process" is the apple itself you see.

All processes or mechanisms are dualistic and indirect. If you are looking for a process behind reality you are not awake.

Awakening is 100% direct. "Impossibly direct", as Ralston would say. Imagine for a second that apple is the process.

You are doing it by BEING it.

[RMQualtrough]

@Mason Riggle Hm. Good post. But if I become lucid in a dream (also usually, but then even moreso), I feel to exert or possess the same exact ability to manipulate reality as I feel now to manipulate my hands.

So there is still a difference here in that I feel the same control of my hands I might while driving a car in a dream. But unlike a dream there are areas I am entirely unable to manipulate. And Leo in his "advanced consciousness" states seems also unable to suddenly fly around the skies. But he can move his hands (we see his live awakening AKA live trip vid on YouTube - he didn't know that Amazon dude was about to knock lmao).

[Mason Riggle]

 

1 minute ago, RMQualtrough said:

But unlike a dream there are areas I am entirely unable to manipulate.

Because THIS isn't exactly like the dreams you dream at night.  I could tell you that the coaster under my coffee mug is shaped similar to a frisbee. It's round. But this doesn't mean my coaster is 'exactly like a frisbee'.   The 'dream analogy' is an analogy. 

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough perhaps it also helps to consider the following - 'If YOU are causing your hands to move, what is causing 'you' to cause your hands to move?" Is there anything causing you to 'be how you are being, when you be how you are?'.   Is the 'you' who is causing your hands to move not 'your hands'? If 'your hands' are not 'you'.. what are you? 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[RMQualtrough]

@Mason Riggle Yeah I'm curious on what that "deeper imagination" is since I can't access it in the same way. Hopefully Leo will do a video on that specifically.

I did trip before where I wasn't controlling my hands and they sexually assaulted me. Dead srs. Freaked me out ofc.

[Nahm]

21 hours ago, m0hsen said:

@Leo Gura Does God know how he is doing his magic (manifesting stuff, will something to happen etc) or the how part remains the mysterious part even for God?

Yes. God, so to speak, is well aware of exactly how God is being this place, or if you like, experience. 

Look to the inward direct experience so to speak, and not the concepts, knowledge, hearsay, conjecture, etc. When the so called finite mind is slowed until without activity, ‘this’ is literally seen, just like your home can be seen from the inside, but also from the outside. No ‘thing’ can do this or help this seeing. 

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough do you feel 'assaulted' by your thoughts?   Are you 'controlling' your thoughts? 

[gettoefl]

god set this up and stepped inside your body so it can experience through you

you are god experiencing

god knows not what will happen next, that would be too dull

if you understand the above however, it's game over

dream = d-ivine r-oaming e-arth a-s m-e

Edited December 23, 2021 by gettoefl

[Terell Kirby]

5 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

god set this up and stepped inside your body so it can experience through you

Well .. God isn’t located inside the human body, it’s dreaming it up. The consciousness is what is experiencing.

Deeply realizing this allows you to transcend the materialist paradigm altogether.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[Mason Riggle]

"If you awaken from this illusion and you understand that black implies white, self implies other, life implies death (or shall I say death implies life?), you can feel yourself – not as a stranger in the world, not as something here on probation, not as something that has arrived here by fluke - but you can begin to feel your own existence as absolutely fundamental.

I am not trying to sell you on this idea in the sense of converting you to it, I want you to play with it. I want you to think of its possibilities, I am not trying to prove it. I am just putting it forward as a possibility of life to think about. So then, let’s suppose that you were able every night to dream any dream you wanted to dream, and that you could, for example, have the power within one night to dream 75 years of time, or any length of time you wanted to have.

And you would, naturally, as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes. You would have every kind of pleasure you could conceive. And after several nights of 75 years of total pleasure each you would say “Well that was pretty great. But now let’s have a surprise, let’s have a dream which isn’t under control, where something is gonna happen to me that I don’t know what it's gonna be."

And you would dig that and would come out of that and you would say “Wow that was a close shave, wasn’t it?”. Then you would get more and more adventurous and you would make further- and further-out gambles what you would dream. And finally, you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today.

That would be within the infinite multiplicity of choices you would have. Of playing that you weren't God, because the whole nature of the godhead, according to this idea, is to play that he is not. So in this idea then, everybody is fundamentally the ultimate reality, not God in a politically kingly sense, but god in the sense of being the self, the deep-down basic whatever there is. And you are all that, only you are pretending you are not." the Dream of Life, by Alan Watts. 

[gettoefl]

1 minute ago, Terell Kirby said:

Well .. God isn’t located inside the human body, it’s dreaming it up. The consciousness is what is experiencing.

just a metaphor to demonstrate god is the cause you are the effect

[RMQualtrough]

@Mason Riggle Well, funny I feel I control my hands moreso than my thoughts. I control my hands without actively thinking.

As someone said, the mechanism is very interesting. I hope Leo will do a video on the whole deeper imagination thing.

[Leo Gura]

It's exactly a dream.

You don't control your dreams.

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough when you say 'I control my hands'.. does this happen by thinking about controlling your hands or not?  If your hands are controlled by how you think about moving them, but you don't control your thoughts... how exactly are you controlling your hands?  

[RMQualtrough]

@Leo Gura Lucid dreams appear controlled as I feel to be able to manipulate my hands. This sensation of having "control" may be an illusion.

@Mason Riggle My mind can be empty of thoughts and I can move my hands. I mean I think a thought is words? The internal monologue?

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough to even recognize that your hands are moving is thought.  Thoughts can be without words. Even babies think. Dogs think. Fish think. 

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough how much control could you possibly have if you don't even know how you are controlling anything?   I could make a robot and program it to behave a certain way, and then look at it and say.. oh look, that robot is controlling itself.  But is it?  Is the robot 'in control' of 'how it behaves'? 

[RMQualtrough]

@Mason Riggle Have you ever been driving and your mind wandered, but then you magically find yourself at home? Hands steering without active thought... And the difference then when you are "consciously" controlling them.

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough sure, sometimes I am aware of my thoughts, sometimes not. 

This doesn't feel like control to me, however. Perhaps it used to. 

I always intellectually understand, that I am just 'being me', no matter what I am doing, and I never have to try to 'be me'. 

I am always aware that, if I suddenly became you (atom for atom, experience for experience, memory for memory, etc.), like, if I WAS you.. I would have no choice but to do exactly what you are doing now. 

[Danioover9000]

@RMQualtrough

On 12/22/2021 at 4:15 PM, RMQualtrough said:

I'm moving my hands. The choice to move my hands is controlled by chemicals and firing in the brain.

The brain and chemicals and electricity is imaginary in nature (I don't have to go through the entire explanation of why, probably you understand why already)... The hands are imaginary, made of touch, seeing, etc.

The chemicals are imaginary, the hands are imaginary, so what is real. What is moving the hands. What ISN'T imaginary?

   It's an interesting topic, a bit different from free will vs determinism/fate.

   Yes, it feels like you are moving your hands and choosing that way, but really focus on that impulse while remembering how the hands have been moving. A series of movements in time past, and not a thought arise of 'I'm moving these hands' when you were roughly 3 or less old. You had 3 years of thoughtless practice of moving your body, without too much attachment to the body or self awareness for the most part, until you were conscious of your reflection plus mimicry of sounds that a thought of the self is formed.

   What is real is stuff that has more permanence versus less permanence in the physical domain. Then there's non-physical stuff, which is where you can label as hallucinations or imagination in the common sense. Here, what isn't imaginary is the physical stuff relatively speaking, but that's also consciousness elements too, just like illusions.