Free will, material, chemicals, and imagination...

[RMQualtrough]

I'm moving my hands. The choice to move my hands is controlled by chemicals and firing in the brain.

The brain and chemicals and electricity is imaginary in nature (I don't have to go through the entire explanation of why, probably you understand why already)... The hands are imaginary, made of touch, seeing, etc.

The chemicals are imaginary, the hands are imaginary, so what is real. What is moving the hands. What ISN'T imaginary?

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough it seems to me you are thinking about this the wrong way. 

Processes, such as thinking, are happening, all by themselves, the way trees are happening, all by themselves. 

There doesn't need to be anyone 'doing things' for 'things to happen'. 

What causes your hand to move? You? What caused you to move your hand? Some other you? 

[Terell Kirby]

5 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

What ISN'T imaginary?

Nothing 

[RMQualtrough]

Research shows that you make a decision before you are even consciously aware of the choice or thought to move your hands (or whatever).

So what is making the decision?

Chemicals aren't real. Hands aren't real. We know this. The choice to move my hands happens before I am conscious of it. So what is making the decision? How is it happening? It is like our inability to will the Sun into vanishing.

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough be careful not to conflate the absolute and relative here. All 'real' (relative) things are 'mind stuff' (imaginary) from an absolute perspective.. and from this perspective, you ARE willing the Sun to shine (or vanish, should that be what God (Absolute you) will). 

In the relative sense, your organism is a system, made up of smaller systems, which is part of a larger system.  The brain is behaving how it will.  Thoughts are occurring. Reasoning is happening.  Hearts are beating. People are reacting.  Hair is growing. Trees are flowering.  And all of these things are simply 'occurring' as one big system, where the state of any relative part of the system defines the states of the other relative parts, but no 'one part' is ultimately responsible for any of it... there is no separate 'you' anywhere causing it's organism to behave how it does.. part of 'how an organism automatically behaves' is creating thoughts of a 'you', when it does.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Nahm]

@RMQualtrough

That research is limited by and is a dualistic interpretation. It’s an opinion.  

[Carl-Richard]

Causality is imaginary.

[RMQualtrough]

54 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Causality is imaginary.

What IS real. Don't just say "you" lol...

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said:

@RMQualtrough be careful not to conflate the absolute and relative here. All 'real' (relative) things are 'mind stuff' (imaginary) from an absolute perspective.. and from this perspective, you ARE willing the Sun to shine (or vanish, should that be what God (Absolute you) will). 

In the relative sense, your organism is a system, made up of smaller systems, which is part of a larger system.  The brain is behaving how it will.  Thoughts are occurring. Reasoning is happening.  Hearts are beating. People are reacting.  Hair is growing. Trees are flowering.  And all of these things are simply 'occurring' as one big system, where the state of any relative part of the system defines the states of the other relative parts, but no 'one part' is ultimately responsible for any of it... there is no separate 'you' anywhere causing it's organism to behave how it does.. part of 'how an organism automatically behaves' is creating thoughts of a 'you', when it does.

When Leo discusses this he calls it a "deeper" level of imagination. What actually IS that?

What is choosing there to be trees etc when I am not at all conscious of such a choice for these things to be. If there is free will at all that is. If there's no such thing then I suppose it would no longer matter.

I feel I control my hands but I know it's "deeper" imagination as brain scans and such will show your choice is made before you're conscious of it. So the same "deeper" imagination responsible for the appearance of trees in the human eye etc.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Research shows that you make a decision before you are even consciously aware of the choice or thought to move your hands (or whatever).

So what is making the decision?

Chemicals aren't real. Hands aren't real. We know this. The choice to move my hands happens before I am conscious of it. So what is making the decision? How is it happening? It is like our inability to will the Sun into vanishing.

These are stories you're dreaming up.

In fact it is Your/God's Will that creates and moves those hands. You're just not conscious enough to be aware of it.

[Craigxt22]

Been thinking about this.

 

God can create an entire Universe with trillions of galaxys, as easy as my limited self as god can move my arms? Just by will, nothing else.

[TheSelf]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

These are stories you're dreaming up.

In fact it is Your/God's Will that creates and moves those hands. You're just not conscious enough to be aware of it.

@Leo Gura Does God know how he is doing his magic (manifesting stuff, will something to happen etc) or the how part remains the mysterious part even for God?

Edited December 22, 2021 by m0hsen

[Carl-Richard]

59 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

What IS real. Don't just say "you" lol...

Reality is real

[Merkabah]

It's interesting, Schopenhaur had caught on to this fact that there is no "free will". Despite neuroscience not being that developed at his time. Now that is someone you would call "a man so far ahead of his time"..........

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

These are stories you're dreaming up.

In fact it is Your/God's Will that creates and moves those hands. You're just not conscious enough to be aware of it.

Can you elaborate?

You aren't able to will a million dollars into your room by becoming conscious enough. This is the "deeper" level imagination you discuss. Beyond the "ego" imagination.

It feels like my ego can will my hands to move. But evidently it's also the deeper level. I can manipulate my hands (existence), which is also coming from beyond ego, but not will some cash into my pocket. Why?

What is THAT. The deeper level I don't manipulate. Why does my ego feel like it's the one moving my hands? If it's not, why can I as the deeper Absolute move my hands seemingly at my will but not everything else?

Edited December 22, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Hello from Russia]

1 hour ago, m0hsen said:

@Leo Gura Does God know how he is doing his magic (manifesting stuff, will something to happen etc) or the how part remains the mysterious part even for God?

God knows anything by definition, bro

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

Can you elaborate?

You aren't able to will a million dollars into your room by becoming conscious enough.

You miss the fact that not being able to will a million dollars, is Will itself .. go meta.

[RMQualtrough]

7 hours ago, Terell Kirby said:

You miss the fact that not being able to will a million dollars, is Will itself .. go meta.

It's different dude. I can easily will my hands into moving. Or at least my ego FEELS like it is moving them (neuro research shows it is also the same "Absolute will" I suppose).

So maybe it is a trick that the brain/ego takes a sense of ownership over the hand movement when the decision happened on the same level as what keeps your kidneys working.

Unlike the will to move my hands I can't make trees magically appear right now with the same ease.

I wanna know the mechanism behind this. "Deeper level imagination" I think would benefit greatly from a lot more explaining. Honestly I think it's worthy of a video, as it's quite vague to say that without explaining how that imagination relates to the sense of control of the hands, etc.

[TheSelf]

10 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

God knows anything by definition, bro

The reason why God is doing anything of course coming out of pure selflessness love, but how which is the technical part I'm curious about is very mysterious indeed.

[Mason Riggle]

@RMQualtrough 'dreaming' makes a fairly good analogy for how this works (it's not a perfect analogy. Reality is not 'exactly like your dreams at night', but similar).  How do you move your hands in your dreams at night? The same exact way you create the trees in your dream.  Because it's all dream, and the character you feel like in your dream is not really 'the dreamer'.  

Recognize that the ego is never in control of anything. It's a character in a dream called reality. The ego is something arising in each new moment, when it does. This can be noticed directly (if and when it is noticed. This can't really be noticed any sooner than it is noticed, if ever, the same way you can't discover a shortcut to work any sooner than you discover it, if ever.) 

Imagine dreaming that you are driving a car, and it really feels like, in your dream, that you are controlling the car.. 'the character who you feel like you are inside the dream' is NOT controlling any car.. there is no car.. there isn't even a character.. it's all dream.   You are the dreamer, but not the character you dream Yourself to be. 
 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Mason Riggle