Leo’s take

[Bronson]

@Danioover9000 Do you have anything to say related to my post?

If Leo is promoting this vaccine so eagerly he should face these facts and try to prove how safe it is.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Bronson

[Consept]

27 minutes ago, Bronson said:

@Danioover9000 Do you have anything to say related to my post?

If Leo is promoting this vaccine so eagerly he should face these facts and try to prove how safe it is.

If you want to analyse and convince everyone, why dont you show how many people have died and then how many have been hospitalsed from taking the vaccine (100s of millions have taken it at this point) and then contrast that with the numbers that have died from covid. If its more from the vaccine then it might be worth looking into, until then its kinda irrelevant proving other things when the numbers are there. 

[Bronson]

@Consept Convince everyone of what?! Did you even watch the videos I posted or looked into the studies? It's about long term risks!!! 

and btw, it's Leo who is trying to convince everyone to get vaxxed ... I would do it but I still have my concernce about it because of the data I posted. Almost nobody is talking about it.

ADE alone might cause even more future covid deaths than you can imagine.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Bronson

[Consept]

27 minutes ago, Bronson said:

@Consept Convince everyone of what?! Did you even watch the videos I posted or looked into the studies? It's about long term risks!!! 

and btw, it's Leo who is trying to convince everyone to get vaxxed ... I would do it but I still have my concernce about it because of the data I posted. Almost nobody is talking about it.

ADE alone might cause even more future covid deaths than you can imagine.

Looking into ADE i came across an interesting article that disputes it in this case and also says what i was saying which is millions have taken the vaccine now so there is plenty of data to go on. Anyway heres an excerpt and link for you - 

"And in my view, the Yahi et al. paper is not aligned with reality. They do work in a line about how "although the results obtained so far have been rather reassuring. . ." with a reference to the Li et al. paper, but they should also refer to the massive amount of real-world evidence now available. We have hundreds of millions of people who have been vaccinated to produce antibodies against the non-Delta coronavirus protein domains and are who are now being exposed to the Delta variant. To reiterate, there is (to the best of my knowledge) no evidence whatsoever of ADE in this situation. In fact, we see the opposite: people who have been vaccinated are far less likely to become infected with the Delta variant, and if they become infected, they are far less likely to experience severe disease. These trends have been seen over and over in different populations, and they are the exact opposite of what you would see if ADE were operating. If the mechanism proposed by Yahi et al. were happening in the real world, then we should see higher Delta infection rates among vaccinated people, with more severe disease. We are not. We are seeing the reverse. The vaccines simply to not appear to be causing ADE, no matter how many reasons one might be able to spin for them to do so.

In short, get real." 

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/new-antibody-dependent-enhancement-hypothesis

 

Again from what you said youre worried about long term effects of the vaccine but again you dont seem as worried about long term effects of covid which are not known at all. From Science Daily - "More than half of the 236 million people who have been diagnosed with COVID-19 worldwide since December 2019 will experience post-COVID symptoms -- more commonly known as 'long COVID' -- up to six months after recovering, according to researchers. The research team said that governments, health care organizations and public health professionals should prepare for the large number of COVID-19 survivors who will need care for a variety of psychological and physical symptoms." 

So it just seems werid to me the over concern with potential but relatively unlikely long term effects of the vaccine, but literal, actual long term effects of covid dont out weigh these vaccine concerns. 

[Danioover9000]

@Bronson

2 hours ago, Bronson said:

@Danioover9000 Do you have anything to say related to my post?

If Leo is promoting this vaccine so eagerly he should face these facts and try to prove how safe it is.

   Yes I do have something to say related to your post. If you are a hard core follower of Leo Gura, watched all the videos, and are active in the forum, then you'd know that Leo is not the type to argue and debate and be hyper rationale in demanding evidence. He has a say against that type of thinking, so in regards to you demanding Leo to prove his statement, Leo is not obligated to prove anything to you. The one who claims for proof is also responsible for providing the proof, so like Leo has said in several of his videos, you have to verify and prove it yourself, rather than demand others for proof.

   But understandable if you are new to Actualized.org and you don't know Leo Gura and how he does things here.

[hoodrow trillson]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

Looking into ADE i came across an interesting article that disputes it in this case and also says what i was saying which is millions have taken the vaccine now so there is plenty of data to go on. Anyway heres an excerpt and link for you - 

"And in my view, the Yahi et al. paper is not aligned with reality. They do work in a line about how "although the results obtained so far have been rather reassuring. . ." with a reference to the Li et al. paper, but they should also refer to the massive amount of real-world evidence now available. We have hundreds of millions of people who have been vaccinated to produce antibodies against the non-Delta coronavirus protein domains and are who are now being exposed to the Delta variant. To reiterate, there is (to the best of my knowledge) no evidence whatsoever of ADE in this situation. In fact, we see the opposite: people who have been vaccinated are far less likely to become infected with the Delta variant, and if they become infected, they are far less likely to experience severe disease. These trends have been seen over and over in different populations, and they are the exact opposite of what you would see if ADE were operating. If the mechanism proposed by Yahi et al. were happening in the real world, then we should see higher Delta infection rates among vaccinated people, with more severe disease. We are not. We are seeing the reverse. The vaccines simply to not appear to be causing ADE, no matter how many reasons one might be able to spin for them to do so.

In short, get real." 

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/new-antibody-dependent-enhancement-hypothesis

 

Again from what you said youre worried about long term effects of the vaccine but again you dont seem as worried about long term effects of covid which are not known at all. From Science Daily - "More than half of the 236 million people who have been diagnosed with COVID-19 worldwide since December 2019 will experience post-COVID symptoms -- more commonly known as 'long COVID' -- up to six months after recovering, according to researchers. The research team said that governments, health care organizations and public health professionals should prepare for the large number of COVID-19 survivors who will need care for a variety of psychological and physical symptoms." 

So it just seems werid to me the over concern with potential but relatively unlikely long term effects of the vaccine, but literal, actual long term effects of covid dont out weigh these vaccine concerns. 

That’s because being terminally online has rotted some of these people‘s brains.  They’re the biggest snowflakes of them all, while calling other people “sheep”.  What a joke.

[Irina Wolf]

On 22/12/2021 at 6:57 PM, Leo Gura said:

Way too much anti-vax bullshit being entertained on this forum.

You are not being intelligent by questioning and undermining vaccination. You are being dumb and hurting society, creating more endless Covid variants and hurting the economy.

Huh? I'm not anti vax but I struggle with these questions too. Especially if these are questions out of pure curiosity or to gather more information,  isn't it a bit harsh to call those people dumb? 

There's so much misinformation out there and so much still unknown, is it really not okay to ask questions? 

Sure. Limit these subjects to prevent the spread of misinformation and derailing. I'm all for it.  But calling people dumb for questioning? I'm surprised! You're the one that taught me to look for different sources of knowledge and to ask questions. 

What if I asked you to see how the process of being unvaccinated is harmful because I would like to gain perspective on that? Instead of showing me, would you call me dumb and harmful to society? 

Please tell me I'm misinterpreting this! 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Irina Wolf said:

What if I asked you to see how the process of being unvaccinated is harmful because I would like to gain perspective on that? Instead of showing me, would you call me dumb and harmful to society? 

It was maybe a bit sloppily worded. It's nevertheless the case that the particular type of questioning that is going on is generally filled with inaccuracies and inconsistencies. Based on all the COVID-19 threads we've had, the general trend is that the same people end up repeating the same 3 points from 1 year ago, bringing up basic statistics like vaccinations rates while failing to control for age, bringing up studies that compare death rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations while failing to control for age or other variables not directly specified, obsessing over verified but low probability threats or unverified long-term threats about vaccination side effects while ignoring similar unverified AND verified threats from viral infections and consequential societal destabilization. Taking this into account, and maybe in a sort of roundabout way, it's true that questioning vaccinations doesn't make you intelligent  

[Bronson]

@Consept 
Here an animal study which contradicts your article a little. 
Cytokine Storm Response to COVID-19 Vaccinations:
https://www.omicsonline.org/peer-reviewed/cytokine-storm-response-to-covid19-vaccinations-114798.html

"We tested vaccination in 33 monkeys and 200 mice and we found vaccinated animals were able to fight off the virus well with resulting a quickly clearing the virus from their lungs except two monkeys and 9 mice. Those two monkeys along 9 mice showed syndrome of cytokine storm in their lungs. This result is extremely important for human vaccination." 

This is about 6%!

 

But I'm more concerned about the Swedish study which shows that the spike proteins prevent DNA repair. They also recommend to change the vaccine a little and only use a part of the spike protein instead of the whole one. This should solve the problem. The study was only made in vitro, that means we just don't know how it realy affects the body.

 

The reason why I'm not worried so much about longterm effects of covid but rather of the vaccine is that I wasn't sick since the pandemic, but if the vaccination agenda goes on  like this, I'll get like 6-8 jabs in the next two years. 

[Consept]

7 minutes ago, Bronson said:

@Consept 
Here an animal study which contradicts your article a little. 
Cytokine Storm Response to COVID-19 Vaccinations:
https://www.omicsonline.org/peer-reviewed/cytokine-storm-response-to-covid19-vaccinations-114798.html

"We tested vaccination in 33 monkeys and 200 mice and we found vaccinated animals were able to fight off the virus well with resulting a quickly clearing the virus from their lungs except two monkeys and 9 mice. Those two monkeys along 9 mice showed syndrome of cytokine storm in their lungs. This result is extremely important for human vaccination." 

This is about 6%!

 

But I'm more concerned about the Swedish study which shows that the spike proteins prevent DNA repair. They also recommend to change the vaccine a little and only use a part of the spike protein instead of the whole one. This should solve the problem. The study was only made in vitro, that means we just don't know how it realy affects the body.

 

The reason why I'm not worried so much about longterm effects of covid but rather of the vaccine is that I wasn't sick since the pandemic, but if the vaccination agenda goes on  like this, I'll get like 6-8 jabs in the next two years. 

I mean you know what I'm going to say, a study of 33 monkeys and 200 mice is almost uncomparable to billions of humans, so i don't think.its worth touching that point. 

Yeah the Swedish study could be true I don't know, if it helps the vaccine safety then of course as long as it goes through the relevant trials. 

Your final point is a very personal one but I appreciate you sharing. I understand on a personal level you're thinking there's more risk taking the vaccine than covid because of your experience, that's fine but I would encourage you to think on a wider level and how other people have actually been affected by this. 

[Bronson]

@Danioover9000 I understand if you don't want to be hyper rational when it comes to enlightment and so on, but when it comes to medical advice (getting vaccinated) I think you should take into account studies like the one from Sweden. You should also have some understanding for those who are concerned about taking the vaccine because of those unresolved risks instead of calling them dumb and hurtful to society. 

[Danioover9000]

@Bronson

3 hours ago, Bronson said:

@Danioover9000 I understand if you don't want to be hyper rational when it comes to enlightment and so on, but when it comes to medical advice (getting vaccinated) I think you should take into account studies like the one from Sweden. You should also have some understanding for those who are concerned about taking the vaccine because of those unresolved risks instead of calling them dumb and hurtful to society. 

   I do take  that into account, and I do have some understanding and empathy to those concerned with the vaccine, especially to the few who have experienced heart arrhythmia from the vaccine only. I just have less to those who push anti vax ideologically, that's all. 

[Bronson]

@Danioover9000 That's alright, I'm not generally against vaccines. But there is also ideology on the pro vax side, people who dislike you when you tell them that you're not vaccinated yet.  

[Consept]

3 hours ago, Bronson said:

@Danioover9000 That's alright, I'm not generally against vaccines. But there is also ideology on the pro vax side, people who dislike you when you tell them that you're not vaccinated yet.  

Its true people do that but people are also ideological beings, i mean it happens both ways, ive told people who are against the vaccine that im vaccinated and they look at me like im an injured sheep. I think a good start would maybe be people not feeling they are some how superior for their choices  

[AlterEgo]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:57 AM, Leo Gura said:

You are not being intelligent by questioning and undermining vaccination. 

 

Wow.  Hilarious.  How to lose credibility 101.  You always preach the exact opposite in your videos and philosophy.   Now, you throw all of that out for 1 subject?  We should appeal to authority, silence our skepticism, and dont ask questions? Yeah.  Really non-ideological. 

Doesn't matter if vaccines are the way out of this or not, the fact you made this statement speaks volumes.  

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@AlterEgo

20 hours ago, AlterEgo said:

 

Wow.  Hilarious.  How to lose credibility 101.  You always preach the exact opposite in your videos and philosophy.   Now, you throw all of that out for 1 subject?  We should appeal to authority, silence our skepticism, and dont ask questions? Yeah.  Really non-ideological. 

Doesn't matter if vaccines are the way out of this or not, the fact you made this statement speaks volumes.  

 

 

   To be fair, that's a video version of Leo Gura, which is slightly different from forum version of Leo Gura who's more aggressive and blunt to ideological speak.

[Opo]

20 hours ago, AlterEgo said:

 

Wow.  Hilarious.  How to lose credibility 101.  You always preach the exact opposite in your videos and philosophy.   Now, you throw all of that out for 1 subject?  We should appeal to authority, silence our skepticism, and dont ask questions? Yeah.  Really non-ideological. 

Doesn't matter if vaccines are the way out of this or not, the fact you made this statement speaks volumes.  

That statement came after 2 years of people trying to find flaws with the vaccines and not being able to. 

If you still don't know what side is correct and you keep wasting time on this you are not being intelligent. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Opo

[BlackPhil]

1 hour ago, Opo said:

That statement came after 2 years of people trying to find flaws with the vaccines and not being able to. 

If you still don't know what side is correct and you keep wasting time on this you are not being intelligent. 

 You can't be serious. Wake the fuck up. Not interested in debating more ideologs here but jesus christ what are you talking about?

[BlackPhil]

22 hours ago, AlterEgo said:

 

Wow.  Hilarious.  How to lose credibility 101.  You always preach the exact opposite in your videos and philosophy.   Now, you throw all of that out for 1 subject?  We should appeal to authority, silence our skepticism, and dont ask questions? Yeah.  Really non-ideological. 

Doesn't matter if vaccines are the way out of this or not, the fact you made this statement speaks volumes.  

 

 

Very true. I sincerely hope he's just making an honest mistake here and not something more malicious. I just find it so strange that a person like Leo, who's literally teaching about these traps would fall into one of them this hard.

If it indeed is an honest mistake I hope he will atleast have the ability to drop the ego and admit it because this is not good to push people like he has been doing on this forum.

If I get banned for bringing this up I couldn't care less tbh, why would I want to remain on an authoritarian forum with an ego that can't accept criticism?

Don't get me wrong, I love actualized and many of the teachings but when it comes to this subject matter I'm amazed at what's going on.

[Opo]

11 minutes ago, BlackPhil said:

 You can't be serious. Wake the fuck up. Not interested in debating more ideologs here but jesus christ what are you talking about?

If it went over your head try reading it again.