Leo’s take

[BlackPhil]

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Again, I'm speaking not just for me, but for the very very few who have experienced those side effects. I'm not speaking for or support anti vax related  ideologies, and hope that some of you see past this ideological warfare and just help the individuals who have those problems with the side effects. I have received some help from some users here already for my ongoing healing of my problem, so do so for someone who asks help for what to do insteadof shutting them down. This part I'm speaking broadly to those reading.

Is it really "very very few"? That's the thing. I personally know more people who got hearth problems after taking the mRNA-shots than I know people who got very sick from covid, and like I've mentioned, I live in a country that didn't even lock down. How am I supposed to be pro these vaccines when things just don't add up when looking at reality and the numbers?

I hope you get well soon! I think you should avoid hard physical exercise until your hearth feels normal. Many athletes who died during intense workout here in Europe now. 

[BlackPhil]

And btw, a tip to Leo: Make one single thread for this topic and let people discuss it there. You can then tell people to only post vaccine stuff in that specific thread keep the others free from it.

This way people who don't want to read it can just avoid that thread. Otherwise it will naturally come up everywhere because it's the hottest topic in society right now, can't escape that fact.

Edited December 23, 2021 by BlackPhil

[Danioover9000]

@BlackPhil

11 minutes ago, BlackPhil said:

Is it really "very very few"? That's the thing. I personally know more people who got hearth problems after taking the mRNA-shots than I know people who got very sick from covid, and like I've mentioned, I live in a country that didn't even lock down. How am I supposed to be pro these vaccines when things just don't add up when looking at reality and the numbers?

I hope you get well soon! I think you should avoid hard physical exercise until your hearth feels normal. Many athletes who died during intense workout here in Europe now. 

   Figuratively speaking it is a few. for every 100 to 1000 cases, there are roughly 100,000 to 1,000,000 who don't have that kind of reaction to vaccine. Figuratively speaking only.

   Thanks, I will get better soon, for the doctor's sake I better get well soon, or ask for a refund. 

[BlackPhil]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@BlackPhil

   Figuratively speaking it is a few. for every 100 to 1000 cases, there are roughly 100,000 to 1,000,000 who don't have that kind of reaction to vaccine. Figuratively speaking only.

   Thanks, I will get better soon, for the doctor's sake I better get well soon, or ask for a refund. 

Yeah, well it's abit early to make out anything from the numbers. Would be literally impossible to already have registered and examined everyone who potentially got those side effects.

Even WHO goes against the booster hysteria now; “No country can boost its way out of the pandemic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/22/who-boss-covid-booster-drives-likely-prolong-pandemic

Also seems like Australia is changing it's tactics and going for herd-immunity instead. Finally a glimpse of hope in all the madness going on. Been saying that for a long time, ofc you can't make such a transmittable virus go away by "boosting" with a leaky vaccine. Only thing that will accomplish is forcing virus-mutations that are more resistant to the vaccine to evolve and get dominant. It's counterproductive. 

 

[Gregory1]

On 22.12.2021 at 3:39 PM, Wildcattt555 said:

why can’t people talk about the relative risk of the vaccine? It’s not nothing. Why can’t people talk about the effectiveness of the vaccine?  The vaccinated can apparently still get and transmit Covid.  

Because this forum is not a conspiracy-theory forum but a place that stands for truth, wisdom and love. We are here to learn and to grow, not to waste our time or engage in lies and ideologies.

Similarly to talking about the risk of covid, it wouldn't be appreciated here, to be talking about the risk of getting killed by a lion. Yes, sometimes people get killed by lions. Yes, sometimes people have complications with vaccines. But all these things are of very small scope and not of interest for the larger community.

People who want to talk about that shit blow it out of proportion. It's like saying: Because sometimes people get eaten by lions I'm not gonna leave my house now anymore.

Bullshit conspiracy theories, all that anti-vaxx ideologies. You should be glad for having a forum like this one which is built on wisdom and truth. You should be glad for having a free vaccine, you should RUN to your doctor to get it.

If you want conspiracy, you'll find plenty of other online forums just built on lies and bullshit, no need to make this one such a place too.

I'll be happy to say goodbye to all conspiracy-theorists. If you wanna be stupid, be stupid. But don't forget this: Stupid people usually don't live very good lives. Stupid people do all kinds of bullshit and then they wonder why their lives suck. Or they act surprised when they get Covid-19 and die terrible and painful deaths from it.

You caused your own bullshit to happen, you created your own death by your sheer stupidity. People are too stupid to see their own stupidity, thats the irony...

[Danioover9000]

@Gregory1

11 minutes ago, Gregory1 said:

Because this forum is not a conspiracy-theory forum but a place that stands for truth, wisdom and love. We are here to learn and to grow, not to waste our time or engage in lies and ideologies.

Similarly to talking about the risk of covid, it wouldn't be appreciated here, to be talking about the risk of getting killed by a lion. Yes, sometimes people get killed by lions. Yes, sometimes people have complications with vaccines. But all these things are of very small scope and not of interest for the larger community.

People who want to talk about that shit blow it out of proportion. It's like saying: Because sometimes people get eaten by lions I'm not gonna leave my house now anymore.

Bullshit conspiracy theories, all that anti-vaxx ideologies. You should be glad for having a forum like this one which is built on wisdom and truth. You should be glad for having a free vaccine, you should RUN to your doctor to get it.

If you want conspiracy, you'll find plenty of other online forums just built on lies and bullshit, no need to make this one such a place too.

I'll be happy to say goodbye to all conspiracy-theorists. If you wanna be stupid, be stupid. But don't forget this: Stupid people usually don't live very good lives. Stupid people do all kinds of bullshit and then they wonder why their lives suck. Or they act surprised when they get Covid-19 and die terrible and painful deaths from it.

You caused your own bullshit to happen, you created your own death by your sheer stupidity. People are too stupid to see their own stupidity, thats the irony...

   It's not the complete picture.

[Gregory1]

17 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Gregory1

   It's not the complete picture.

No, it is indeed just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to go deeper maybe study how ideology and conspiracies work, Leo has some excellent videos on it.

[w4read]

Seems like an important factor determining the risk of the heart disease myocarditis is whether or not they use "aspiration", which is a technique meant to ensure that the vaccine doesn't go to the blood. Denmark has been following this procedure during the whole pandemic and has a significantly lower occurence of myocarditis ( 129 cases or 0,003% of the amount vaccinated) compared to for instance Norway ( 274 cases or 0,0073% of the vaccinated) who hasn't had this as a part of their routine. 

[BlackPhil]

56 minutes ago, Gregory1 said:

Because this forum is not a conspiracy-theory forum but a place that stands for truth, wisdom and love. We are here to learn and to grow, not to waste our time or engage in lies and ideologies.

Similarly to talking about the risk of covid, it wouldn't be appreciated here, to be talking about the risk of getting killed by a lion. Yes, sometimes people get killed by lions. Yes, sometimes people have complications with vaccines. But all these things are of very small scope and not of interest for the larger community.

People who want to talk about that shit blow it out of proportion. It's like saying: Because sometimes people get eaten by lions I'm not gonna leave my house now anymore.

Bullshit conspiracy theories, all that anti-vaxx ideologies. You should be glad for having a forum like this one which is built on wisdom and truth. You should be glad for having a free vaccine, you should RUN to your doctor to get it.

If you want conspiracy, you'll find plenty of other online forums just built on lies and bullshit, no need to make this one such a place too.

I'll be happy to say goodbye to all conspiracy-theorists. If you wanna be stupid, be stupid. But don't forget this: Stupid people usually don't live very good lives. Stupid people do all kinds of bullshit and then they wonder why their lives suck. Or they act surprised when they get Covid-19 and die terrible and painful deaths from it.

You caused your own bullshit to happen, you created your own death by your sheer stupidity. People are too stupid to see their own stupidity, thats the irony...

Omg, what are you even talking about... Since when is the vaccine having side effects a conspiracy theory? You're the one being an ideolog if anyone here. All medications have side-effects and this seems to have pretty serious ones, that's not a conspiracy.

This forum is about personal development, spirituality and enlightment. Physical and mental health goes hand in hand with this. Discussing potential side effects from the vaccines is ofc very relevant because such things can complicate all these things we are working towards.

Would advice you to open your mind abit and stop being so judgemental to everyone with a different opinion. If not I can promise you it will prevent your spiritual development.

Edited December 23, 2021 by BlackPhil

[BlackPhil]

1 hour ago, Gregory1 said:

 

Wrong post.

Edited December 23, 2021 by BlackPhil

[Carl-Richard]

@BlackPhil On mRNA skepticism: you're concerned about potential long-term effects because it's a new technology previously untested in humans, right? Are you just as afraid of the same type of potential long-term effects from a new virus previously unknown to humans (COVID-19 infection)? If not, what is the distinction there?

Also, what about the long-term potential for new hyper-lethal variants? On that note, if you really want to piss your pants, look up "viral recombination" and ponder the potential disastrous outcomes of that, if you dare ?

[Consept]

@Danioover9000 I get where youre coming from and of course as you say some unlucky albeit few people, will get legit side effects. Ultimately it is a measure of risk, is the virus more damaging or is the vaccine? Imo the virus is way more damaging, as in its not even close, but that doesnt mean the vaccine is perfect of course. But of course stay safe and i wish you the best in getting over these issues. 

23 minutes ago, BlackPhil said:

All medications have side-effects and this seems to have pretty serious ones, that's not a conspiracy.

This is true, all meds do have side effects. Did you know for example that ibuprofen has been reported to kill over 16,000 people and hospitalise over 100,000 per year just in the US alone? (Deaths are prob closer to 3200 but either way) As far as i know the vaccine is nowhere near those numbers and this for a med that you can buy over the counter and administer yourself. Also less people take ibuprofen (21m) than the vaccine, so percentage wise its actually a lot higher. But ive never heard anyone complain or protest about ibuprofen, does this not seem hypocritical to you that you would be so against a vaccine on the basis that its dangerous but not even bother with other drugs that have been proven to be much more dangerous? This is before we even get to opiods and other medications, why not focus on these more pressing issues?

[BlackPhil]

45 minutes ago, Consept said:

This is true, all meds do have side effects. Did you know for example that ibuprofen has been reported to kill over 16,000 people and hospitalise over 100,000 per year just in the US alone? (Deaths are prob closer to 3200 but either way) As far as i know the vaccine is nowhere near those numbers and this for a med that you can buy over the counter and administer yourself. Also less people take ibuprofen (21m) than the vaccine, so percentage wise its actually a lot higher. But ive never heard anyone complain or protest about ibuprofen, does this not seem hypocritical to you that you would be so against a vaccine on the basis that its dangerous but not even bother with other drugs that have been proven to be much more dangerous? This is before we even get to opiods and other medications, why not focus on these more pressing issues?

Nobody is mandating ibuprofen are they? On implementing ibuprofen passports for you to access basic services in society? Ofc not, and there's where the problem lies. Apart from that ibuprofen is well tested and we know the long term side effects. These vaccines we do not know but are still trying to push them on the whole human race, over and over, pretty much by force. I hope you can see the difference?

Edited December 23, 2021 by BlackPhil

[BlackPhil]

50 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@BlackPhil On mRNA skepticism: you're concerned about potential long-term effects because it's a new technology previously untested in humans, right? Are you just as afraid of the same type of potential long-term effects from a new virus previously unknown to humans (COVID-19 infection)? If not, what is the distinction there?

Also, what about the long-term potential for new hyper-lethal variants? On that note, if you really want to piss your pants, look up "viral recombination" and ponder the potential disastrous outcomes of that, if you dare ?

Well, I'd rather trust natural evolution of the virus than something rushed out by humans in a lab tbh (even if this would cause my physical death). If this virus follows the normal pattern of similar viruses it will mutate to less lethal variants (which seems to already be the case with omicron). These mRNA-shots only last for a short period and obviously doesnt stop the spread nor people from getting the disease so I don't really see the big benefit here in the longrun? Most people will instead end up with both getting the virus plus potential side-effects from the mRNA-shots. And the fact remains that covid is pretty much harmless for younger people, while the vaccines has shown to cause hearth problems (especially for young men). This means I don't really see the big benefit here?

If it was either or (and the vaccines was one effective shot that made you immune for a long time) it would be a different story. But it's not.

The worst part is that they're trying to force the jabs upon people tho. I don't have anything against letting people do as they wish. The problem starts when it becomes (more or less) mandatory. When media and politicians create more polarization and division through demonization of people who don't want to be part of the experiment. This is the real problem.

Edited December 23, 2021 by BlackPhil

[Carl-Richard]

On 23.12.2021 at 11:17 PM, BlackPhil said:

Well, I'd rather trust natural evolution of the virus than something rushed out by humans in a lab tbh (even if this would cause my physical death).

...OK? You trust cyanide? Ricin? Any other natural poison or venom? This is not a trivial point that you can just brush away.

 

On 23.12.2021 at 11:17 PM, BlackPhil said:

If this virus follows the normal pattern of similar viruses it will mutate to less lethal variants (which seems to already be the case with omicron).

Let's stick to the potential and long-term here, as that is what we're so concerned about (and we might perhaps have an original discussion for once).

The idea that the less lethal variants outcompete the more lethal ones is only true in a very local sense, because the dominant variant can always mutate to a more lethal one, which over the long-term will look like sporadic bursts as they get outcompeted again. Then in the super-long-term, you might get a hyper-lethal burst, and that's not good.

I only wanted you to engage with these two points about long-term threats, but now you brough out a bunch of other points that have been brought up a dozen times already, which I have no choice but to respond to:

 

On 23.12.2021 at 11:17 PM, BlackPhil said:

These mRNA-shots only last for a short period and obviously doesnt stop the spread nor people from getting the disease so I don't really see the big benefit here in the longrun?

mRNA vaccines limit the spread by reducing the likelihood of being infected. It's true that once you're infected, you will transmit it at basically the same rate, but infections are nevertheless reduced. The benefit in the long-run is that fewer infections leads to fewer new variants overall and that various systems like the economy and the healthcare system don't collapse. 

 

On 23.12.2021 at 11:17 PM, BlackPhil said:

Most people will instead end up with both getting the virus plus potential side-effects from the mRNA-shots.

And the fact remains that covid is pretty much harmless for younger people, while the vaccines has shown to cause hearth problems (especially for young men). This means I don't really see the big benefit here?

If you get infected while vaccinated (which there is a lower chance of in the first place), you will experience fewer symptoms. Long-COVID is still a thing, and the virus is known to cause various degrees of organ damage and neurological damage. Your choice.

 

If your bar for whether something is harmless or not is set at the probability of having heart problems as a side effect from the vaccine, then you cannot say that the virus is harmless for younger people.

[w4read]

@BlackPhil I can agree with you that after the rising of omicron, which by all means seems to be a significantly less lethal variant ( between 90-50% less severe than the delta if Im not mistaken) and where there is questionable whether the vaccine have any effect when it comes to actually getting the disease, it is harder to say whether taking the vaccine at this point is nesscessary or not.

In my country, they are no longer "recommending" young people to take the vaccine, or more specifically the booster dose. The argument that you should take the vaccine to protect the elderly no longer counts with the new variant, which seemingly infects anyone, vaccinated or not. So it is more a question of personal risk at this point. Although, if you protect yourself you also protect society in a sense by reducing the risk of the health care system collapsing.

Tbf I'm not actually sure why they push out booster doses in a lot of countries when still huge parts of africa haven't even gotten their first dose. In Israel they are even proposing the 4th dose which makes me shake my head a bit. Bare in mind that this is what can bite us in the ass ( and already did with omicron in south africa). Countries with less vaccination coverage where the virus can mutate freely without any limits. WHO has been pushing for a more evenly distribution of vaccine for a long time now, which is one of the key factors in mitigating covid risk. 

[Danioover9000]

@Gregory1

5 hours ago, Gregory1 said:

No, it is indeed just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to go deeper maybe study how ideology and conspiracies work, Leo has some excellent videos on it.

   I have seen all the videos, and contemplated the advanced topics and basic topics. You're post is mostly blaming, which was what I was pointing out. You parroting points against a movement, while lumping me into that group, which I am not a part of nor support. Don't include me into a delusional group, despite how my personal problem matches their talking points about the vaccine. My problem is real, while theirs are mostly parroting each other, with a few being actually experienced, which may have originally started from actual cases where vaccine side effects, dating back to the traditional vaccines that contained aluminium as a base, which correlated to some developing cognitive decline faster, and a percentage of the population being born with autism and ADD disorder, which is partially true. You were barging in here being generally negative isn't helpful at all.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Nahm]

The definition of conspiracy is two or more people colluding and breaking the law(s). 

The connotation or collective belief is that conspiracy equals not true, as if the term conspiracy had something to do with the people talking about or looking into laws that were broken, and why, and by who. 

Thus conspirators, law breakers if you will, thrive on & are shielded from legal repercussions by, the collective connotation. It’s very personal for them so to speak. 

Do we all need something more than covid to see that suppression is not the way I wonder. Hopefully not. 

Epistemological & etymological foundation could be said to be worthwhile. 

[Bronson]

@Leo Gura

On 22.12.2021 at 6:57 PM, Leo Gura said:

Way too much anti-vax bullshit being entertained on this forum.

You are not being intelligent by questioning and undermining vaccination. You are being dumb and hurting society, creating more endless Covid variants and hurting the economy.

There are two main reasons why I am sceptical about taking the vaccine at this time. 

One is the ADE risk and the other is a study from Sweden showing that the spike proteins prevent DNA repair. 

IF YOU CAN PROVE to me why I don't have to worry about this in the long term, I WILL TAKE THE VACCINATION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!

Study from Sweden:
https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056

A perspective on potential antibody-dependent enhancement of SARS-CoV-2:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2538-8

Explanation Videos for ADE and Spike protein DNA repair:

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Bronson

[Danioover9000]

@Bronson You do know that Leo is not into proving others right or wrong?