Conscious Psychotherapy: CBT or Psychodynamic

[Ulax]

Psychodynamic therapy can cause deep, meaningful, dramatic change that CBT is simply not capable of.

[Bestyle2209]

17 hours ago, kieranperez said:

As far as meditation goes, yeah it can be healing in some sense but the authentic orientation of contemplative practice is not about healing you. It's about waking up. Yeah, along the way that stuff might get sorted out but often times it doesn't. There's reason Waking Up, Growing Up, and Cleaning up are outlined as different processes because they are. Don't assume that all because you've had (an actual) enlightenment experience or mystical-whatever that that means you're anymore morally developed or more cognitively developed. Yeah, there might be some interaction between those different lines of development but that doesn't mean it's inherently the case. 

thank you for this distinction. Do you believe there is reason for combining these different processes or at least to possess the qualities to help others waking up as well as healing, as, like you say, there is some interaction between these different lines of development? Or do you believe it should be rather left to different experts who have "specialised" in one of these areas so that they can help you in that area with even greater expertise - that is to say - keeping it like we have it mostly nowadays. Most psychotherapists not understanding something about waking up and most meditation teachers understanding little about healing. 


 

You might underestimate CBT. In Germany, first and foremost, CBT is defined as everything that works (admittedly out of the scientific materialistic worldview), recently including more integrative aspects of therapy such as schema therapy (taking in biographic events - aka. more depth), as well as body based trauma therapies which enable obviously deeper-lying trauma healing. Secondly, CBT in Germany gets way more sessions granted (50 at the very least, as the therapist can "order" more sessions to be paid of the insurance companies - I've heard in the US it's much less sessions) and, for many, it seems to be relatively effective in healing them. What I presume is that much of analysis' success can be traced back to simply having waaaaay more sessions with the client then CBT does, increasing introspection and a constant confronation with yourself. As more modern techniques CBT techniques such as rational emotive cbt techniques (including stuff like socratic dialogue) or the third wave therapies also stimulate you to aim at introspecting and understanding yourself, and not just giving you tools, such as coping mechanisms, CBT and related techniques might simply need to be applied longer then it is used to do to achieve more longer, deeper lasting effects. I claim this part about applying CBT even longer then it is used to without much scientific evidence. I am biased by the success CBT had on me. Even simple behavior therapy made me feel like, with rigid, closely-followed by sessions with my therapist (twice a week), as if I would reach deeper lying traumas by acting out on the behavior I avoid, e.g. "forcing" myself to engage in conflicts with my dad lead me to learn to feel and express anger more clearly and strongly. What do you think?

Thank you for the book advice.

 

[kieranperez]

2 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

Do you believe there is reason for combining these different processes or at least to possess the qualities to help others waking up as well as healing, as, like you say, there is some interaction between these different lines of development?

No. You might as well ask whether or not being a better surgeon makes one better at being able to socialize with people. These are distinctly different processes that do different things. Yes, you'll find plenty of people and teachers for that matter that lump a bunch of different practices that do very different things on one retreat where no one has any understanding that all these different things are distinctly different processes. In the same way you can go for a "workout" but a session of 3-4 sets of low rep bicep curls till failure doesn't at all develop the same thing that you would be targeting if you were to go to a track and run 10x400 meters intervals at mile race pace with 90 seconds rest. You can include a bunch of different things but that doesn't mean you're doing or developing the same things. Trauma release and psychotherapy is not oriented towards waking up. Can it help? Yeah, you work on your hindrances. That's spiritual purification right there (provided you're following an orientation for what Wilber would outline as "Showing Up" which is about demonstrating in practice one's own purification through honest speech and so forth - the classic exoteric stuff that comes with religion). 

2 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

Or do you believe it should be rather left to different experts who have "specialised" in one of these areas so that they can help you in that area with even greater expertise

Don't expect an enlightened teacher to help you deal with shadows unless they are specifically trained for that. I wouldn't go to a yogi to teach me how to bench press or help me train for a 100 mile race. Don't expect a psychoanalyst to help you awaken. 

2 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

Most psychotherapists not understanding something about waking up and most meditation teachers understanding little about healing.

They don't need to. It's not a psychotherapists job to help you awaken. Ultimately that's on you. Teachers, psychedelics, or whatever else you can think of will not awaken you. Can they help with your process towards awakening? Yeah of course. It helps to have a psychotherapist you actually resonate with that is understanding and what not but they don't need to be aware of that stuff. 

2 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

CBT is defined as everything that works (admittedly out of the scientific materialistic worldview), recently including more integrative aspects of therapy such as schema therapy (taking in biographic events - aka. more depth), as well as body based trauma therapies which enable obviously deeper-lying trauma healing.

This is not what CBT is. Cognitive behavioral therapy is a very specific form of therapy. I've been in it. I'm not a fan but if it actually works for someone, go right ahead. I don't really know of a single form of talk therapy where patients/clients to delve into their past via their stories and biographical narratives. 

2 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

CBT in Germany gets way more sessions granted (50 at the very least, as the therapist can "order" more sessions to be paid of the insurance companies - I've heard in the US it's much less sessions) and, for many, it seems to be relatively effective in healing them.

Psychoanalysis is traditionally 3-5 times per week. Going into matters regarding insurance doesn't really have to do with the methods of practice as that's based on the healthcare system as a whole. Our entire healthcare system in the United States is downright criminal. A patient's ability to get more sessions regardless of what the form of therapy often just comes down to how much the patient is willing to spend out of pocket which is usually pretty pricey. Psychoanalysis is not popular in the US and is usually very expensive as it's pretty much never covered by insurance but there are inexpensive routes despite paying out of pocket. 

3 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

it seems to be relatively effective in healing them.

I don't know what you mean specifically when you say "heal them". That's just a pretty vague statement. Vague abstractions aren't useful in this kind of dialogue. 

3 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

 What I presume is that much of analysis' success can be traced back to simply having waaaaay more sessions with the client then CBT does, increasing introspection and a constant confronation with yourself

This just reflects you don't know what psychoanalysis is. 

3 hours ago, Bestyle2209 said:

As more modern techniques CBT techniques such as rational emotive cbt techniques (including stuff like socratic dialogue) or the third wave therapies also stimulate you to aim at introspecting and understanding yourself, and not just giving you tools, such as coping mechanisms, CBT and related techniques might simply need to be applied longer then it is used to do to achieve more longer, deeper lasting effects.

CBT attacks surface level behavioral issues and doesn't appreciate and lacks the understanding of the deeper psychic structures of mind. You're attacking things from a conscious level. Surface level stuff. You say these techniques "simply need to applied for long" not understanding that the whole issue has to do with motivation because patients actually don't want to change deep down even if they say they do. It's not addressing the unconscious and the deeper inner conflicts that manifest in daily life as unconscious slip ups. You know, those things that just seem to happen again and again and again and again and you can keep trying to apply the same surface level strategies that fail again and again and again and again and again no matter how hard you seem to try. There's a lack of appreciation of the deeper issues because the orientation is not about understanding but just about changing mechanical minutia.  

The kind of people that I see have "success" (people have different vantages points of what they might consider success, self understanding, and so forth) with CBT are usually the people that by and large have had a pretty stable upbringing and deal with pretty minor neuroses. I see that form of therapy really failing because there is so much depth that it lacks that is so deeply need in human culture in the world today that is missed because people want to deal with the quicker surface level issues rather than take the time to really dive deep. The integral relationship between CBT paradigms and the failing mental health care systems inform me of just how much this stuff truly is missing the mark because people just want faster changes. 

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

[Bestyle2209]

Thank you for your perspective and for taking the time, much appreciated!!!  will take some more time to dig into psychoanalysis@kieranperez

[Buba]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:47 AM, kieranperez said:

You're not really saying anything here. Be more specific and clear as to what you experienced, what happened, and so forth as to what lead you to come to this belief/conclusion. 

I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder since childhood. It got worse over time and I got feelings that there are missions I have to do, otherwise I am incomplete, not worthy. I visited psychiatrists, psychologists, consumed antidepressants, meditated for years, but to no avail. I started to go to psychoanalysis in September 2019 and in January 2020 it was revealed I had repressed my homosexuality, which frightened me. 

So here is the long story

 

[SgtPepper]

What really matters is evidence-based practices. 

Honestly, no one cares what approach you have as long as you bring results to them.

I am personally more into CBT since its practice, present focused, and easier for others to learn. For example, it is much easier to help clients identify negative thought loops and what strategies to use versus interpreting dreams or free association. It's probably going to depend on the client themselves.

I think both approaches raise consciousness though. Psychotherapy is all about practicing consciousness. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by SgtPepper

[Neorez]

I personally had the most success with body focussed therapies. So maybe also look into Dramatherapie as well?

[Tristan12]

On 12/21/2021 at 5:47 AM, flowboy said:

Primal therapy, Emotional release therapy, IFS and Psychedelic-Assisted psychotherapy are lightyears more effective than any form of therapy that only involves talking and analysing. Institutions are hopelessly behind, and if you let them control your destiny, you may be missing the boat on helping people the best you can.

On 12/21/2021 at 5:47 AM, flowboy said:

On 12/20/2021 at 8:12 AM, Bestyle2209 said:

due to the system of our health insurances, one has to choose for a specialisation in either CBT or psychodynamic therapy.

No, you don't have to let "the system" tell you how to help people.

On 12/21/2021 at 5:47 AM, flowboy said:

Don't worry about what health insurance will cover. That will change soon anyway.

Or move to the Netherlands, where any form of therapy is coverable.

And if you serve people powerfully enough, and they need only 10 sessions with you instead of 10 years in therapy, they will happily pay you out of their own pocket. (I'm not exaggerating. I could introduce you to people who literally get these kinds of results )

I'm not saying CBT or other PDP are not helpful and great, they are.

I'm saying don't let institutions have that power over you, decide independently from their constraints what you want to do.

Help people in the way you believe is most effective.

Finish your education, but also look beyond what is taught there.

Find and experience what you believe works best. Learn that.

I can give you some references of therapists who carved their own path like this, and are wildly successful.

I 100%, wholeheartedly agree with this. If you want to help people as much as possible then use the alternative healing techniques that you find to be the most effective. Don't just be another product of the system. The techniques of standard therapy today barely help people compared to what's possible