If I Give You The Choice...

[Mariem]

Hello,

after watching leo's video about Zen devil, I'm confused and I have this question in my head that i want to share with you.

if I give you the choice between two lifestyles:

1) a farmer, living a peaceful life , full or gratitude, love ,compassion.. he developed the quality of his life by meditating, becoming more conscious, less stressed and fearful.a loving person that shares his love not only with his family but with all beings around him

2) a business man, very ambitious, he has goals and dreams, big dreams, unrealistic dreams but he's depressed, stressed and unhappy..a workaholic person, even if he is working all the time he's never fulfilled, he always wants more.. 

will you choose the first or second choice and why?

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Mariem

[Leo Gura]

@Mariem So you're basically asking:

Would you rather be happy or depressed?

[Mariem]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Mariem So you're basically asking:

Would you rather be happy or depressed?

Hi @Leo Gura ! you have no idea how much i love your channel ! and you too ^^"
i'm so excited to see your answer !! T_T
what I want to say leo, is that in this last year after discovering your channel and self-actualization, i developed a new lifestyle : minimalism, meditation, compassion, ego death, i'm working on veganism .. I have no more this attachment to success, to achieving goals, to change the word and to create a better life.. because i believe that what matters is the quality of life, whether it's peaceful or stressful ...
if i had the choice, i would go for the first lifestyle.
My life purpose is to enjoy every moment of my life, to share love and compassion with all beings..

I have no profound reason to set goals and to try to achieve them, because that only brings stress, deception and fake fulfillment !!

Am i becoming a Zen devil? I'am so confused!

[poimandres]

On 1/3/2017 at 6:00 AM, Mariem said:

Hi @Leo Gura ! you have no idea how much i love your channel ! and you too ^^"
i'm so excited to see your answer !! T_T
what I want to say leo, is that in this last year after discovering your channel and self-actualization, i developed a new lifestyle : minimalism, meditation, compassion, ego death, i'm working on veganism .. I have no more this attachment to success, to achieving goals, to change the word and to create a better life.. because i believe that what matters is the quality of life, whether it's peaceful or stressful ...
if i had the choice, i would go for the first lifestyle.
My life purpose is to enjoy every moment of my life, to share love and compassion with all beings..

I have no profound reason to set goals and to try to achieve them, because that only brings stress, deception and fake fulfillment !!

Am i becoming a Zen devil? I'am so confused!

Through the stress and opposition, the businessman reaches his goals and GROWS. It's not fake fulfillment. He's (potentially) in control of his destiny. That stress beings understanding and knowledge.

Living the comfortable and easily life is a completely great choice too, don't think otherwise. Im not knocking it. The problem is that you never break out of that bubble of comfort by doing the same things over and over.

There's no reason you can't have compassion, enjoy every moment, etc and still be the businessman style as above.

You can be subject to destiny, or direct your path. The choice is yours.

[eskwire]

@Mariem What do you think a zen devil is?

[Martin123]

2 hours ago, poimandres said:

Through the stress and opposition, the businessman reaches his goals and GROWS. It's not fake fulfillment. He's (potentially) in control of his destiny. That stress beings understanding and knowledge

You absolutely sure about that?

[poimandres]

13 hours ago, Martin123 said:

You absolutely sure about that?

Depends on what the context is. If you are trying to learn a new skill, or start a business, learn a language or instrument, at first it's going to be hard. You will probably get impatient and the risk of quitting is great. But if you stick it out, you become better. 

Let's take chess, or ping pong, or some type of sports. The only way to get better is by being beaten. This opposition is healthy. The student eventually becomes the master, then he needs a new master to reach greater heights (more opposition). 

I do believe it is possible to direct your destiny or be subject to it. Again, it's choice. It takes growing and opposition to reach your own destiny.

Edited January 13, 2017 by poimandres

[Martin123]

@poimandres
Is stress and depression a student's necessity to become a master?

[poimandres]

@Martin123

Depression is a mental problem. So that's their regardless is someone wants to be any path, or someone who thinks all this is bs. Depression has nothing to do with the path.

Stress is unavoidable any path. Resistance is stressful, it's uncomfortable, and our natural tendency is to flee pain (activating our instincts to survive). If you choose to try to make your own destiny, you will be stressed that it's not working, etc. You will be stressed because you will be tested in ways you never saw coming.

But by just living, you are still stressed. What if that farmers crops don't sprout? What about wild animals? Theives? Or other problems. There are unforseeable troubles either way. 

I left my lights on in my car the other day and my batter went dead. That's got nothing to do with the path, but it was stressful finding someone who had jumper cables (there were only a few people left in my office and I was across the street).

Edited January 13, 2017 by poimandres

[poimandres]

30 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@poimandres
Is stress and depression a student's necessity to become a master?

To answer the question specifically, regarding masters.  Stress is absolutely necessary.  Depression, no.

Take meditation for example.  Why does it drive your monkey mind wild?  Because you are controlling it and applying resistance to it. It's stressing that part of your brain out (temporarily), but it eventually learns why the resistance was necessary.  Any how many hours do you have to spend in meditation and contemplation to become a master?

[Martin123]

@poimandres I believe that stress caused by unrealistic goals is of different nature.

[Martin123]

41 minutes ago, poimandres said:

@Martin123

Depression is a mental problem. So that's their regardless is someone wants to be any path, or someone who thinks all this is bs. Depression has nothing to do with the path.

Stress is unavoidable any path. Resistance is stressful, it's uncomfortable, and our natural tendency is to flee pain (activating our instincts to survive). If you choose to try to make your own destiny, you will be stressed that it's not working, etc. You will be stressed because you will be tested in ways you never saw coming.

But by just living, you are still stressed. What if that farmers crops don't sprout? What about wild animals? Theives? Or other problems. There are unforseeable troubles either way. 

I left my lights on in my car the other day and my batter went dead. That's got nothing to do with the path, but it was stressful finding someone who had jumper cables (there were only a few people left in my office and I was across the street).

Now that is interesting.
What happens if your path of mastery involves mastering stress? :-)

[poimandres]

5 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

Now that is interesting.
What happens if your path of mastery involves mastering stress? :-)

Make no mistake, you will face a bunch of stress at first, and it will be hard. Eventually you will be the master of it. Then it will become second nature to conquer it because of your confidence.

[Martin123]

@poimandres So does it really grow the businessman? Being stressed? Chasing his imaginary house of cards happiness, fearing he won't achieve it?
Wouldn't he become more successful, more at peace, and grow more, if he just let go? 
Why shall we be stressed when we are mastering something? It is illogical. It is joy, it is one of the fundamentals of being alive. 
Is a baby stressed when it is learning how to walk? Or is it laughing along the way.
Is a dog stressed when it's mastering the fetch game, or is he having tremendous fun along the way?

The idea of stress growing us. Isn't it a limiting one? 
What if growth could be achieved by merely fun.
What I don't condition my growth on stress.
What if I rid myself of the belief that "good things" are achieved through "hardship".
What if I let go of the conditioning where I carrot and stick myself towards all my goals in life?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Martin123

[poimandres]

20 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@poimandres So does it really grow the businessman? Being stressed? Chasing his imaginary house of cards happiness, fearing he won't achieve it?
Wouldn't he become more successful, more at peace, and grow more, if he just let go? 
Why shall we be stressed when we are mastering something? It is illogical. It is joy, it is one of the fundamentals of being alive. 
Is a baby stressed when it is learning how to walk? Or is it laughing along the way.
Is a dog stressed when it's mastering the fetch game, or is he having tremendous fun along the way?

The idea of stress growing us. Isn't it a limiting one? 
What if growth could be achieved by merely fun.
What I don't condition my growth on stress.
What if I rid myself of the belief that "good things" are achieved through "hardship".
What if I let go of the conditioning where I carrot and stick myself towards all my goals in life?

@Martin123

I know it's illogical.. I know it sounds crazy. It's a paradox. Babies do laugh at times when walking, but they fall a billion of times (and sometimes hit their heads by accident) and it's scary when they first fall, they will fall on their ass (and not hurt themselves) and cry like the dickens because they are scared. Not because they hurt themselves.  Mom/dad comforts them the first time and realizes they aren't hurt, but then what?  Mom/dad stop comforting them every fall. Then the baby gains confidence, stops crying unless he's really hurt, and walks.

The dog still has to go get the ball and put in work.  Thus some dogs will stop fetching because the game becomes about entertaining the master, not the dog.

I hope this illustration will put it in perspective.. Does the master yogi's body bend that way naturally?  How did he contort his body in those positions? Over one night/day? By little resistances, stretching along the way and over a LONG period of time, not just in sessions but years of practice. Years of resistances. 

It's not a limiting belief. You doubt you can conquer the goal. Thus becoming limited. You should believe you can conquer anything (even those "unrealistic" goals as above) but don't be blind to the fact that it will be difficult and you will face challenges..

If you want something that I should reference: Hazrat Inayat Khan - Sufi master

What if I laid on my couch and ate potato chips all day and expected my destiny to happen? Would I become fit?  Even if I lost weight, and counted calories, I would look unhealthy in the long run.  My muscles would atrophy. That's letting "destiny" happen. Or giving up.

The goals have to be something not like carrot and stick.  That's hanging onto the reward.  You have to become outcome independent on the goal.  You want this to happen because it is your will.  You want to see this into manifestation from your thought-form to reality. You conquer these goals because it makes you feel in control, gives you purpose, and reasons to get out of bed.  Not because you want $1M.  You become the creator and your life becomes the canvas. But it's still hard and stressful.

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by poimandres

[Martin123]

5 minutes ago, poimandres said:

The goals have to be something not like carrot and stick.  That's hanging onto the reward.  You have to become outcome independent on the goal.  You want this to happen because it is your will.  You want to see this into manifestation from your thought form to reality. You conquer these goals because it makes you feel in control, gives you purpose, and reasons to get out of bed.  Not because you want $1M.  You become the creator and your life becomes the canvas. But it's still hard and stressful.

Need a reason to get out of bed you say? Why? Isn't it the natural aliveness that should be kicking us out of bed? The miracle of life? The absolutely unbelievable paradox of existence? The joy of being able to open and close our eyes?

Feel in control? Of what exactly? Of your life that will last a few decades, and after another a few decades all you "create" shall turn to dust?

Life becomes a canvas and you become the creator?
Oh my man isn't it the other way around? Isn't life the painter, and we are the canvas? hehehe
 

[poimandres]

12 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

Need a reason to get out of bed you say? Why? Isn't it the natural aliveness that should be kicking us out of bed? The miracle of life? The absolutely unbelievable paradox of existence? The joy of being able to open and close our eyes?

Feel in control? Of what exactly? Of your life that will last a few decades, and after another a few decades all you "create" shall turn to dust?

Life becomes a canvas and you become the creator?
Oh my man isn't it the other way around? Isn't life the painter, and we are the canvas? hehehe
 

You get that feeling of being alive and getting out of bed from purpose.  You are astounded by the miracle of life because the earth has birthed you, but not without pain. If you chart the evolution of man with all the species on a series of pictures, there were species that did not make it. Your sperm had to sift through millions of others to make it. But you made it!

Quote

Feel in control? Of what exactly? Of your life that will last a few decades, and after another a few decades all you "create" shall turn to dust?

You can be control your life destiny. Why brush your teeth in the morning if they are going to get dirty again in the evening?

Quote

Life becomes a canvas and you become the creator?
Oh my man isn't it the other way around? Isn't life the painter, and we are the canvas? hehehe

@Leo Gura and many other masters have eluded to the fact that you are the universe. What I'm trying to express, is no different. It is possible the other way around as you want life to impose it's will on you (and not in a bad way, like life makes you it's bitch, sometimes it does).  But what I'm saying is just from another perspective. You are the creator and leaving your imprint on the sands of time (but life still can make you it's bitch).

Edited January 13, 2017 by poimandres

[Martin123]

@poimandres Ok.

[MIARIVEL]

@Mariem A business man who is very ambitious with unrealistic dreams doesn't seem so common in this day and age. Stress will come even working / living on a farm. The business man could be unhappy because he is not yet where he wants to be with his goals but it working towards them (not necessarily a bad thing). 

For people who are ambitious, they will always want more because once completing a goal, you need more goals to live for and have a purpose. People who work hard and are driven to want the very best from life will always want more. 

That't not to say farmers can work hard to, can be very ambitious to in how they manage their farm and family. Farmers get stressed to when crops don't grow and can still have problems within the family (probably not the same problems as a business man who lives in the city). 

There are so many different factors to consider here, this scenario is not a black and white picture.

[aurum]

I understand the point of the question, I'd say the first. But this dichotomy doesn't exist in real life.

Yes, chasing happiness via success is like chasing your own tail. But that doesn't mean there's no point in pursuing success. This is the nuance I feel like most people miss.

Pursuing success can actually contribute to your happiness greatly. You're contributing to the world, sharing your gifts. You're doing what you love. You're CHALLENGING your ability to remain detached from outcome, in a state of gratitude and present when shit hits the fan.

Because if you NEED to essentially do nothing in order to remain mindful, how mindful are you really?

It's a similar philosophy as those intense monks Leo talks about. They do shit like try and be mindful for days in a row because they're trying to PUSH THEMSELVES.

The spiritual purification is not about passivity and laziness. It's extremely challenging and requires HARD WORK and ACTION. And there's no one right way to do it because there's nothing that isn't spiritual.

So I view pursuing success and the spiritual journey as complimentary. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe one day I'll decide I was totally confused and move into a cave. But that's not likely.