What aspect of denial dose stage green have?

[Happy Lizard]

Trying to apply the concept of Learning by finding distinctions: 

 

stage blue shows denial for: god does not exist.

stage orange denies that spirituality is important, or science can’t answer all questions, or profit does not equal happiness. 
 

what does stage green’s denial look like moving to yellow? How does yellow show green that he/she has built a house of cards ? 
 

I’m not asking what tigers green, but what has yellow going for them that green either a) secretly wants b) can directly show green how they are not questioning themselves and/or blindly excepting ideas and beliefs ? 

[Hello from Russia]

Huge one. They deny and don't accept all devilry/evil and everything that doesn't support/contradicts their green views.

I feel like they start to move to yellow territory once they stop being as judgemental as 90% green speakers on Ted Talk. Wanna see the limits of green? Watch green people on Ted

[lmfao]

@Happy Lizard Spiral Dynamics claims to be constructed by looking at human society and psychology empirically. Spiral Dynamics isn't deductive reasoning, it's inductive,

When people get into the framework of SD and observe different groups in the world, they have a million examples they've clustered into any given colour (look at the millions of past posts on the forum on SD), and I would argue the confusion and structure of the discussion ends up defining the model, unfortunately. 


The jump between tier 1 and tier 2 is describing nothing more than divergent and associative thinking. 

[Happy Lizard]

@lmfao 

My concern with this thread is how does this happen naturally ? (the jump from tier 1 to 2) even though I see the limitation of green-world view, I cannot tell what would make green move to yellow. I feel like I have been listening to actualized.org enough to be moving towards yellow, but have I not encountered Leo's content I'd probably still be judgmental and emotionally driven green. 

One good example is your post: now have I not been interested in yellow kind topics, the possibility of divergent thinking or deductive reasoning would not register for me. 

[DocWatts]

Off the top of my head:

Game Denial.

Not understanding how development works.

Lack of compassion / empathy for the other Tier-1 Stages

Lack of pragmatism, and not taking current Institutions and developmental conditions in to account.

Viewing social problems through a reductionist class paradigm (ie some forms of Marxism).

Overly relativistic.

A return to magical thinking (aspects of some New Ages spiritualities).

Elevationism, and not understanding the pre/trans fallacy

Edited December 20, 2021 by DocWatts

[Happy Lizard]

@DocWatts pre/trans fallacy was a big one for me! I had a life-coach/spiritual teacher which I labeled early green, that was convinced that enlightenment was returning to the original state of being an infant or a new born. of course that wasn't also clear to me until I learned about ken wilber's pre/trans fallacy. 

Most of what you mentioned doesn't sound like a part of my world-view anymore, but do you mind clarifying what Game denail is ? I'm assuming you meant Game theory which I'm also ignorant of, but why would Stage Green disapprove of it ?

[DocWatts]

@Happy Lizard

Here's an excellent write up on Game Denial from Emil Ejneer Friis (writing under the pseudonym of Hanzi Frienacht).

It's an excerpt from a book called The Listening Society, about Metamodernism, which is the meta-paradigm that comes after post-modernism. The book builds upon models like Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber's Four Quadrants model to construct a Yellow Metamodern paradigm. I'd highly recommend the book.

Yet, many of us frequently fall victim to what I call “game denial”: the inability to perceive, or a negligence of, the logical and behavioral rules that regulate human relations. Game denial is when you ignore or “wish away” certain uncomfortable truths regarding human relations and how reality works. Or simply when you deny the realities of life and forcefully impose your own “ought” upon what “is”.

https://metamoderna.org/game-denial/

[Carl-Richard]

"Be inclusive. If you're not, we'll exclude you."

[soos_mite_ah]

On 12/20/2021 at 0:14 PM, DocWatts said:

Viewing social problems through a reductionist class paradigm (ie some forms of Marxism).

I feel like the reductionist class paradigm has more in common with stage blue communism in Russia. 

There is a quote that I remember reading a while back that really stuck to me. It's along the line of "intersectionality without anti-capitalism is just liberal identity politics and anti-capitalism without intersectionality is class reductionism." To me, liberal identity politics is orange/green while class reductionism is blue. I feel like like the classic case of how ideological class reductionism can be and how it's more blue than green can be seen by tankies. But then again, I'm not super well versed in the spiral dynamics of class reductionism.

[soos_mite_ah]

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

"Be inclusive. If you're not, we'll exclude you."

I agree with this. I feel like stage green (myself included at times) has a tendency to dehumanize people who might not know better. Don't get me wrong, having strong boundaries is necessary but degradation and dehumanization isn't necessary to do that. You can still correct someone and stand up for yourself without personally attacking people. If anything, that is more effective in most cases. 

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

To me, liberal identity politics is orange/green while class reductionism is blue. I feel like like the classic case of how ideological class reductionism can be and how it's more blue than green can be seen by tankies. But then again, I'm not super well versed in the spiral dynamics of class reductionism.

Some categories are too wide to fit neatly into one SD stage, and I'm suspecting that might be the case for class reductionism. The perfect question to illustrate this is: "which SD stage is ideological?" 

What about "liberal class reductionism"? 

[Happy Lizard]

@Carl-Richard mine is 'you cannot call me a racist!'

that's very true, and green is very unaware of this. while working a shift I met a supervisor who held the same liberal values of me but could not fathom that I came from a third world country. it ended up reviling so much of her and other crew members inner judgments towards me.

I stood still in that job for two years, I cannot believe I did it, but I defiantly got to see the hidden face of stage green thinking people.

[Jacob Morres]

@Happy Lizard 

i think there might be an issue between values and emodiement of values

wdym not being able to fathom? like she thought u would be extremely mysigonist or be anti-lgtbq or something?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[Happy Lizard]

@Jacob Morres yeah basically, throwing phrases such as "you must think that this country is such a crazy place isn't it". She was too heavy and felt like she couldn't comprehend why I would choose to work where gay people of color would work.
 

[DocWatts]

On 12/21/2021 at 6:03 PM, soos_mite_ah said:

I agree with this. I feel like stage green (myself included at times) has a tendency to dehumanize people who might not know better. Don't get me wrong, having strong boundaries is necessary but degradation and dehumanization isn't necessary to do that. You can still correct someone and stand up for yourself without personally attacking people. If anything, that is more effective in most cases. 

'Be compassionate towards individuals and critical towards power structures' seems like a good rule of thumb to follow.

[Bernardo Carleial]

On 24/12/2021 at 5:35 PM, DocWatts said:

'Be compassionate towards individuals and critical towards power structures' seems like a good rule of thumb to follow.

"Be less judgmental and more critical" is also good one for vMEME Green 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Bernardo Carleial

[soos_mite_ah]

On 12/24/2021 at 2:35 PM, DocWatts said:

'Be compassionate towards individuals and critical towards power structures' seems like a good rule of thumb to follow.

I really like this. It sums things up quite nicely. 

It also reminds me of how some green people reacted during the Texas snowstorms in February 2021. I remember seeing a lot of social media posts from some leftist talking about how Texas deserved those snowstorms because of the way they voted and how they deserve it because they are stupid since their infrastructure isn't up to the par to deal with these conditions due to the overly individualistic nature of how things are run.

There were also a lot of leftists (particularly southern leftists) that were calling those people out who were saying those things about Texas. The whole thing was about how this attitude is basically ecofascism and that it's still important to care about people even if you don't agree with them. This talking point also called attention to how things like red lining, gerrymandering, and lack of funding in education contributes to certain voting outcomes in a systemic level and how shaming people because of this is also a form of classism because it's essentially poking fun at people with lower education levels and lower income levels. Finally, there was also talk on how some people on the left are there because they have this whole world view of winners and losers and how that robs them of the compassion they would otherwise have for people who live in red states. 

Generally speaking, though I might be incredibly biased, but I feel like a lot of leftists in the south tend to be better integrated because we are often brought up in conservative environments or at the very least have to deal with a lot of conservatives/liberals. A lot of us know why conservatives and liberals draw the conclusions they draw due to the environment they are in and how we need to deal with these people accordingly to get through to them. Not only that, but we often have to come to our own conclusions with leftism since odds are that there aren't many people around us who think in similar ways, therefore it's not like we get indoctrinated with green ideals and skip over the other stages. I feel like a lot of leftist who live on the coasts sometimes do exude a form of liberal elitism where they are essentially like *look at how much more educated and tolerant we are. we aren't backwards like those southerners.*  

[Loba]

I like lmfao's answer.  Stage green does not have as many solutions as stage yellow and is more emotional and reactive towards what it considers "wrong" outside of it's paradigm - like, oppressive/abusive/disingenuous/dishonest - and tends to fight back for equality.

There is a lack of finding solutions and being able to step into the point of view of an aggressor.  It's reactive, dogmatic at times, and can be more lazy if blue and orange are not integrated properly.

Greens need yellows to show them better ways of divergent thinking - more examples, more ways to integrate new views and not get stuck in old views.  Green does not move with the flow the way a yellow does.  Yellow can find commonality and get along with most people - the problem is, yellow looks uncaring and unempathetic in some ways.  It has such a large picture perspective and is so masculine, that the feminine green can be put off by yellow if it does not know how to empathize with green's concerns.  Green often doesn't have the direction and drive that yellow has.

Greens are sensitive, they need space to integrate the evils of the world and come to understand why things aren't fair and  "how to deal".  Greens need to learn to view their emotions from a third person perspective.  They haven't "gotten over themselves" yet, many times.  Greens need to learn to accept things as they are; to learn to understand things from a systemic point of view, which is less personal and more inclusive.  Greens need yellow to show them what multi-perspectival actually means.  Greens deny yellow this opportunity many times until they see the value of moving up - they view themselves as more empathetic than yellow when it is the other way around - yellow just doesn't get mired down the way green does, yellow sees the whole system and plays with it.

Green gets stuck.  Green is a sticky place to be.  I can go from red to green depending on my environment.  When safe, I am green, when afraid I revert to red.  I need to work on orange and some blue as well.  Green is stuck in the past still in some instances - still egoic - still fighting - and yellow seeks solutions.  Green needs to learn to go back to blue and orange, integrate that in order to become stable enough and sovereign enough to be yellow.  Yellow is an individuated person.  Yellows can teach greens if green can look and see how this sort of thinking can be helpful - but it is a huge jump.  I view it as the feminine integrating the masculine.

Greens need their creativity and curiosity sparked towards new ideas - towards systems thinking - I imagine a lot of women are green - they either go downwards and get stuck with an orange and this fails or they find yellow and work 'up' - however, yellows are lonely and often get stuck with green because yellow is hard to find.  It isn't easy to turn a closed minded green person yellow - they have to do it themselves - you can throw a bone here and there, but the stage orange work is on them to complete.  Otherwise they would be yellow, not green imo.  Green is like a shortcut stage - you can get there, get stuck there, and not want to go back down... but you have to.  

Green - enfp; infp; isfp; enfj - generally
Yellow - intp, intj, infj - generally - "mature" entp's - most are orange though.

Sensors - usually make up purple, red, blue and orange - not as self-reflective - isfp is generally the exception to the rule and tends to come across as a pseudo-intuitive.  

Edited December 27, 2021 by Loba

[Happy Lizard]

@Loba 

// this is a bit of a rant but I hope you enjoy it, I kind of tend to spew out my thoughts so I can capture as much meaning as possible that I can communicate, please let me know what you think  :

I love this this is so insightful, there are a number of reasons why I see green getting stuck:

1) getting stuck with gurus/spiritual teachers that gives them no way to ascend up the spiral, and focus only on the 'Now' and present moment. No mention of self-actualization work, being yourself and/or finding your purpose, what you like about life and how to meet your needs, largely (maybe) because those who seek spirituality form super-star  gurus are almost all rich and/or famous, who can afford being in those retreats and are wealthy individuals who has there needs met not by integrating it form lower stages but from possibly being fortunate and they are at green so yeah how else will they not be stuck? 

2) people who are born in places where anarchism, relativism and/or post-modernism already present in their society or where they live, they have no idea what living with blue red or purple means, they tend to glorify purple, be either confused scared or tempted to be red and view blue as backward traditional and/or too goody-good and brush them of as delude or unnecessary to society. completely backward way of thinking relative to SD 

other ways green get stuck is by 3) being too emotional too utopian, this is definitely not how green thinks of themselves but it is the truth and I can attest. 

for example: Rebel Wisdom which I really am beginning to like and find insightful are a vMEME yellow creators, they can appear as 'A Jordan Peterson cult' as so many people think of them, and I get way green would think that way, just the fact that they step upon subjects dear to the heart of stage green like psychedelic and treat them with a careful mind and an approach of a rational person says so much about how they respect what they are doing and willing to inform people the right way without spreading misinformation or over hyping a subjects, but that alone makes green go crazy. because it's a sacred topic to them that is not allowed to be discussed or looked at from another perspective, 'only green knows what they are talking about when they talk about psychedelics' that's the attitude of green claiming knowledge! only they know and anyone else doses't knows what they are talking about regarding this issue!

4) another problem is the lack of humbleness, I guess it takes a lot to become green, and that's why you don't feel like going back down the spiral and integrating your shadow stuff 

I'd love to have more conversation about how to transition from green to yellow, for example my response to lmfao was in a way saying ' well how does green find out how to move to yellow if they don't know a yellow person to tell them what to do or where to look ?' like seriously why would I know or dabble in systemic thinking, control theory or ken Wilber work if I'm not already aware of it some how, or super really wanting to find a solution to problems that I'm ready to would look anywhere for a solution!? how the hell would I know these subjects or where to look assuming I'm green and not doing self-actualization and not aware of a Leo Gura ? it's tough and no wonder a lot of stage green people stay in stage green. 

BTW, I'm either infp or enfp. I've heard that these Myers–Briggs Types come form Carl Jung and the not very well known reason behind them: is to find a way to transcend each letter of your type, by working your way out of  each letter and not be stuck with the idea that you are one type rather than another. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Happy Lizard

[DocWatts]

On 12/26/2021 at 9:31 PM, soos_mite_ah said:

I really like this. It sums things up quite nicely. 

It also reminds me of how some green people reacted during the Texas snowstorms in February 2021. I remember seeing a lot of social media posts from some leftist talking about how Texas deserved those snowstorms because of the way they voted and how they deserve it because they are stupid since their infrastructure isn't up to the par to deal with these conditions due to the overly individualistic nature of how things are run.

There were also a lot of leftists (particularly southern leftists) that were calling those people out who were saying those things about Texas. The whole thing was about how this attitude is basically ecofascism and that it's still important to care about people even if you don't agree with them. This talking point also called attention to how things like red lining, gerrymandering, and lack of funding in education contributes to certain voting outcomes in a systemic level and how shaming people because of this is also a form of classism because it's essentially poking fun at people with lower education levels and lower income levels. Finally, there was also talk on how some people on the left are there because they have this whole world view of winners and losers and how that robs them of the compassion they would otherwise have for people who live in red states. 

To be fair learning how to be compassionate towards other people with whom you have a gut level disagreement about basic values is an acquired skill (to put it mildly). 

It brings to mind how a gay friend of mine expressed the pain of having family members support political ideologies that work to rescind thier right to live openly and authentically, and I don't necessarily think thier resentment towards people who hold these views is unreasonable.

Compassion often runs up against the wall of conflicting survival needs. From the perspective of those who occupy a precarious position in society, it's completely understandable how it can feel as if others are seemingly going out of thier way to make life more difficult for you than it needs to be.

Developing compassion in these types of scenarios requires sociological understanding and a degree of ego maturity, and naturally not everyone has been given the opportunity to develop in both of these areas.

SD-Yellow (where much of judgemental nature of Green is transcended) comes from a place of privilege, after all.

Edited December 28, 2021 by DocWatts