A deeper realization than god

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, johnlocke18 said:

@Breakingthewall You get what I’m saying, so I’ll elaborate. You don’t experience it you realize it, because like you said if you experience it’s not nothing. But you need to understand that you know how when you go to sleep you go away without experience and time just skips. It’s like that, but when you become god and go deep enough, you can go away like that but to the point you realize ALL of existence goes away. It is almost like god or infinity temporarily killing itself to no longer exist, not because it’s tired of it or has human like limits, but because it’s nature like everything else in existence has to go away at some point. You don’t experience it but you realize it’s happening. And that is true enlightenment. Becoming god or the atman, but having a no self “experience” not just as a human, but as existence.

Dope

So it sounds a bit like total cessation or nirvana experience to me. No?

Edited December 18, 2021 by Salvijus

[johnlocke18]

@Judy2 No one. I’ll elaborate since you’re starting to get what I’m saying. You know how when you sleep there’s no experience you just go away? And you realize you did without it experiencing it? Well when you become god and realize you’re god, you can go deep enough to where all of existence fades away. And it’s not that you’re experiencing a void, there is no experience. You just realize as god that you completely went away. And it’s not that god gets tired of existence, it’s because like in everything else and nature things have to not exist for a bit. And it’s the deepest realization, because like this thread has repeated, there’s nothing deeper than god. 

[johnlocke18]

@Salvijus Im confident it is what they’re talking about, enlightened masters, and that’s why they say they can’t explain it in words. Because when they do, people believe that they’ve attained it after experiencing emptiness. That’s why I can tell people that are saying nothingness is just a part of god or that god is the ultimate realization just haven’t realized true nothingness yet, just emptiness and infinity. And when they go through formlessness and infinity, they think “this state is what they meant!” And that you can experience it. You can’t experience it, only realize it happened. Leo also said everything is a state, making me believe he hasn’t realized it either. They call it the stateless state, because it isn’t a state. At all. God goes away. That’s why they say atman and Brahman. God is the ultimate atman. And just like everything else there’s a pendulum so there is a final Brahman. True enlightenment is post god realization when nothing exists, and then comes back. 

[johnlocke18]

@Judy2 Yes. That’s how you can take it back. And it’s deeper than god because if god can go away, then nothingness is the only thing that can be deeper. And because god can not exist anymore, that makes it more than just a part of god. Beyond god. 

[Nos7algiK]

14 minutes ago, johnlocke18 said:

 And it’s the deepest realization, because like this thread has repeated, there’s nothing deeper than god. 

You are weaponizing dualistic language. But, what we are pointing to is much like Russian dolls. At it's core in a Russian doll there is nothing. "Outside" that nothing is the doll(God). Outside God there is nothing. Outside that nothing is another doll "God". This goes on forever, but there must be a final answer right? What is the biggest concept of them all? Is the doll the ultimate ground or is there more nothing outside that ground? There will always be more to see as we increase the scope of our consciousness. There is no answer or should I say the answer isn't set in duality this/that.

The idea of a Russian doll already implies it's nothingness both inside and out. They are one in the same but even a Russian doll (God) isn't the most accurate term for what we are pointing to.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Nos7algiK

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, johnlocke18 said:

True enlightenment is post god realization when nothing exists, and then comes back. 

Yeah, sounds like a typical budhhist definition of cessation. Where all experience dissapears. A dip into a nibbana. 

In some schools they say one doesn't even have to go through god to enter nibbana. It's possible to skip it and go straight to nothingness. Or you can use god as a stepping stone to go to nirvana.

Just adding some thoughs here 

[Nahm]

“God consciousness” obscures nothing. 

[johnlocke18]

@Nos7algiK I’m not weaponizing anything. You’re just not getting my elaboration. I’m just using the closest word we have to explain it. The word nothing wouldn’t exist if it didn’t point somewhere (or nowhere). God is an experience, but nothingness can only be realized. But you can’t experience nothing. When you go deep enough as god, all of existence will go away like when you go to sleep, and then come back. You’ll realize it happened, like when you go to sleep, but you won’t experience it, like when you go to sleep. And then you realize nothingness is the deepest realization because it’s the only way god can not exists. Non existence. 

[johnlocke18]

@Judy2 Right? Once you get it even intellectually the dots connect. It’s like the missing piece but you can see my frustration now and how it goes over everyone’s head. 

[Nahm]

8 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Nahm ? How do you know "nothing" is true?

Cessation is of  ‘you’s’, ‘teachers’, ‘Tony Parsons’, ‘Jim Newmans’, ‘form’, ‘formless’, etc. “They” haven’t “experienced cessation”, cessation is of “they’s” and or “experience”. 

[Nos7algiK]

@johnlocke18I don't agree with the term "deepest" when it comes to this type of work. Though I personally use to think Nothing was the end goal. Just like I thought God/Infinity was once the end goal. Certain experiences/realizations are so profound and shake us to the core that it's easy to get lost in the ideologies within this path. To see them as the end.

Don't mistake others talking to you about this as lack of understanding. Though, I don't claim I have the answers we still need to always take in account the deceptive nature of reality and how the mind is designed to be attracted to this deception.

My states are only here to claim that saying Nothing or cession is "true" enlightenment. Which I disagree with. I don't believe realizing infinity either is "true" enlightenment. I don't believe that somewhere in the center of these two ideas is "true" enlightenment. But, in this day and age everyone has their own personal relative idea of what enlightenment is and I suppose since I have no person definitive idea of it, all opinions are equally as valid to the concept.

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, Judy2 said:

Some teachers like Tony Parsons or Jim Newman also say that there is no experience and that Being is Nothing.

I doubt that they have experienced cessation in the sense we're talking about here, as in, there's 100% Nothing there.

This is different than seeing the formlessness that sits under the form in conscious existence, right?

End of beingness is the final cessation I think. 

There's utter nothingness. Then there's beingness/presence/consciousness. Then out of that consciousness creation happens. That's the explanation given by mooji. I hope I got it right ? 

[johnlocke18]

@Nahm Eh you’re mixing it up with empty space. If god can stop existing, then nothingness obscures god. All of existence can have a no self experience. And I don’t mean that in the sense of blackness or emptiness is covering it up, I mean completely not exist. Like when you go to sleep you go away, yet you don’t experience anything and time skips. Well when you go deep enough you can do that as god, and you can’t experience it but come back and realize it happened. So, it’s the deepest realization. 

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, johnlocke18 said:

25 minutes ago, johnlocke18 said:

You don’t experience it but you realize it’s happening. And that is true enlightenment. Becoming god or the atman, but having a no self “experience” not just as a human, but as existence.

 

think: it is not that you, johnlocke, saw the nonexistence, it is that you, God, reached a state of absolute emptiness. where there was no where or when, nothing. except one thing: you. If you had stayed longer, maybe the focus would have shifted to that you, and nothing would have opened. The thing is: non-existence can't be. 

[Nos7algiK]

1 minute ago, Judy2 said:

@johnlocke18 But somehow i feel like the highest and most profound wisdoms should forever be a mystery cause otherwise it breaks the spell? Or maybe is this like the one thing that can't disappoint.

There is a phenomenal quote in the Tao Te Ching which I believe fits the nature of reality personally. It's in the first chapter.

"Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
 this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery."

If we continue to believe there is "more" reality itself will always manifest itself as "more". It is an endless "trap" that can never be escaped by attempting to escape it. One could seek more than God and they will have an experience of it. If one believes aliens or deities exist, they will one day experience it.

But, the mystery itself IS the very nature of what we seek and what we should aim for.

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Cessation is of  ‘you’s’, ‘teachers’, ‘Tony Parsons’, ‘Jim Newmans’, ‘form’, ‘formless’, etc. “They” haven’t “experienced cessation”, cessation is of “they’s” and or “experience”. 

I think you're describing a state of samadhi or no-mind. The buddhist's definition of cessation is when all experience dissapears not just the conceptual mind. 

No experience means no experience. No sounds, no smell, taste, sights, feelings. Nothing. I don't even know if you're still conscious there. 

[Nahm]

7 minutes ago, johnlocke18 said:

@Nahm Eh you’re mixing it up with empty space. If god can stop existing, then nothingness obscures god. All of existence can have a no self experience. And I don’t mean that in the sense of blackness or emptiness is covering it up, I mean completely not exist. Like when you go to sleep you go away, yet you don’t experience anything and time skips. Well when you go deep enough you can do that as god, and you can’t experience it but come back and realize it happened. So, it’s the deepest realization. 

Hey! Mind the quotations.  When said, or spoken… “God consciousness” … obscures nothing. Implies nothing is not or is other than, nothing.

[johnlocke18]

@Nos7algiK Well deep doesn’t mean above or more than. It just means the most within. And if god and all of existence itself can have a no self experience or go to sleep like we can, then that means nothingness is the most within. I’m not misunderstanding, if someone thinks nothingness is apart of god, then they don’t realize god and existence itself can go away. If we go away and we become god, then when god goes away it becomes nothingness. Making it the deepest.

[Nahm]

4 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Nahm But weren't we contrasting the Nothingness described in this thread with God/Existence? Or are you saying that again, the two are the same?

Not two. 

[johnlocke18]

@Judy2 They are not. Just like when your body  goes to sleep it’s not the same as the body being awake. They are opposites. Existence and not existence. People think because everything is one NOTHING can be separate. Well, they’re right, they just don’t understand why they’re right haha.