NYT Opinion: We’re Edging Closer to Civil War

[Epikur]

Quote

And this war won’t be only about the subjugation of Black people but also about the subjugation of all who challenge the white racist patriarchy.

It will seek to push back against all the “others”: Black people, immigrants, Muslims, Jews, L.G.B.T.Q. people and, yes, women, particularly liberal ones.

In some ways, the abortion battle now being waged in the courts is a test case. Can the states make an argument that a civil right can be reversed on the state level? Can they make the case that all that the Constitution has not explicitly spelled out should be reserved for the states?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/12/opinion/abortion-rights-america.html

[Leo Gura]

In other words nationalism/fascism. This is not new. We've been here before, but society has evolved a lot in the last 100 years.

[Hardkill]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In other words nationalism/fascism. This is not new. We've been here before, but society has evolved a lot in the last 100 years.

That's true. However, do you think that this time we may be more likely headed towards a civil war given the fact that the US has become more polarized than ever before, especially due to both Trump and the right-wing media? 

The Jan 6th capitol riot incident was the first time that something like that ever happened to our country.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

I foresee problems ahead, but not a civil war.

Will nutjob MAGAs and brainwashed conspiracy theorists cause problems? Yes. It's just hard to know how exactly it will play out. It's certainly a cause for concern and tightening defenses. These folks have lost all shame.

But they will never be on the winning side of history. It's just a question of how much damage they do in their defeat.

[Hardkill]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

I foresee problems ahead, but not a civil war.

Will nutjob MAGAs and brainwashed conspiracy theories cause problems? Yes.

What kind of problems do you think are more likely to happen?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

What kind of problems do you think are more likely to happen?

They will certainly try to steal elections and stuff like that.

Their constant crying about election theft is just classic projection. They are the ones who struggle to win democratically.

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They will certainly try to steal elections and stuff like that.

Their constant crying about election theft is just classic projection. They are the ones who struggle to win democratically.

So, even if the right-wing freaks try again and again and again to steal future elections, you don't believe that the fall of US democracy is inevitable or even possible at all like how this guy talks about in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIwRB7r6wM4

Edited December 14, 2021 by Hardkill

[Epikur]

Hillary Clinton: Trump Winning 2024 Election Could Be ‘End Of Democracy’
 

Quote

In part two of this week’s Sunday Sitdown, Former Secretary of State and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton sits down with Sunday TODAY’s Willie Geist to discuss the possibility of former President Donald Trump running for reelection. Clinton predicted dire outcomes if he ran again, and revealed the guilt she carries for losing the 2016 presidential race.

 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Hardkill said:

So, even if the right-wing freaks try again and again and again to steal future elections, you don't believe that the fall of US democracy is inevitable or even possible at all...

No, I think there is serious threat of right-wing ideologues grabbing control. It's a troubling situation. But it certainly will not hold. It would be an act of devilry and it would eventually defeat itself. But it can cause plenty of damage. Trump has done serious damage to democracy which will take decades to heal.

It's not good. The transition from Orange to Green is looking very rocky and drawn out.

[Vrubel]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not good. The transition from Orange to Green is looking very rocky and drawn out.

Question: why does this transition from Orange to Green look less rocky in Europe?

Is it because the US has a massive population. Also, I feel that from the very start, stage orange ideals were deeply baked into the identity of America. Stage orange and America might as well be synonyms. 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Vrubel

[DocWatts]

Democracies don't just collapse overnight. Every collapse that's happened was proceeded by a period of years to decades where democracy was ceasing to function in a normal or healthy manner.

And the truth is that democracy has been on the decline in America for some time now. The incentive structure of capitalism is at cross purposes with democracy, and unlike the Social Democracies of Europe the US has been unable to prevent political system capture by oligarchs who were able to roll back much of the New Deal and force austerity measures on the public.

In addition to the meta-paradigm shift (and resulting ego-backlash) towards Green, I don't think it's any coincidence that the resurgence in fascism is also taking place amid a half century decline in living standards for most Americans. 

I have to think that a lot of the resentment that's fueling the resurgence in white-nationalism is a result of a large portion of white Americans being subjected to the same sorts of economic deprivation that communities of color have experienced throughout the history of this country.

Material deprivation and economic anxiety provides fuel for Bad Actors to channel feelings of anger and resentment towards societal 'elites'. Capitalizing upon these feelings, they then work within the existing democratic system to garner support among a portion of the public to end democracy. The reason that this is possible is due to widespread feelings that existing institutions have become corrupted and lack legitimacy in the eyes of the public, which is the kernal of truth that fascism exploits for the purposes of amassing power.

What we're seeing right now is exactly how one would expect fascism to work if and when it came to America. Most people have too restricted a notion of what fascism is (ie Nazi Germany), not realizing that fascism adapts itself to the conditions of the society it finds itself in. It sells itself as a return to a 'traditional' way of life towards a segment of the population that's feeling threatened by changes happening in the society, and this necessarily will look different in America than it did in Germany, Italy, or Spain.

Edited December 14, 2021 by DocWatts

[Fleetinglife]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Question: why does this transition from Orange to Green look less rocky in Europe?

Have you checked on your Eastern border member states neighbors recently? Poland and Hungary. That there is a severely symptomatic upper Blue stage consciousness backlash against Orange (EU) and a hint of Green values (more inclusive, diverse, and tolerant post-modern version of liberalism).

Also to the West, Brexit, which was very grounded in nationalist feelings and British xenophobia and newly created resistance towards upper stage Orange values of the EU.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[Jodistrict]

In my opinion, the real problem is the absolute greed and lust for power of the controlling hierarchy.  If you follow the figures you will see that during this “pandemic” the wealth has continued to concentrate into a smaller number of hands.   People are being divided into groups and given reasons to fight each other by the mass media, which distracts everyone from the concentration of wealth and power achieved through financial manipulation, not productivity. 

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Fleetinglife said:

Have you checked on your Eastern border member states neighbors recently? Poland and Hungary. That there is a severely symptomatic upper Blue stage consciousness backlash against Orange (EU) and a hint of Green values (more inclusive, diverse, and tolerant post-modern version of liberalism).

Also to the West, Brexit, which was very grounded in nationalist feelings and British xenophobia and newly created resistance towards upper stage Orange values of the EU.

By Europe I mean of course Western Europe.

People underestimate how brutal and bleak the (recent) history of eastern Europe was, so no wonder Poland and Hungary are a stage or two behind.

Also, Brexit was not grounded in xenophobia. Just in moderate nationalist and conservative values. Your country used to be a mighty Empire that kicked ass in every major European war and now you are losing sovereignty to the EU. Of course, this will cause an identity crisis. 

I am not defending Brexit, I think it was a dumb move. But in order to defeat Hitler, Britain needed a lot of healthy stage blue self-sacrifice and nationalism. The Scandinavian countries, who are spirally the most advanced simply don't have this recent history of depending on nationalism to defeat a greater evil. They were either too weak or neutral.

So yeah, I guess if you're a small and insignificant western European country it's easier for you to spirally develop. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Question: why does this transition from Orange to Green look less rocky in Europe?

Firstly, there is rockiness in Europe too.

Secondly, Europe has already had a lot of internal struggle in the last 100 years. They've earned some peace the hard way.

Thirdly, American culture is particularly hooked on Orange and even Christian Blue. America is more religious than Western Europe and this dogma is directly responsible for a lot of American problems. Fundamentalist Christianity + rampant capitalism is not a recipe for health.

Trump/Bush could not have won without the fundamentalist Christian crowd. Abortion is basically a fundamentalist Christian dogma issue which doesn't exist in Europe.

[AdroseAkise]

I think what January 6 represented, and why it was so scary, was the the fringe far right of American politics will act if they are pushed far enough. 

The Atlantic made a good piece regarding this: https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2021/12/donald-trump-2024-election-coup/620922/

Who knows, there is always the possibility that they will act even more violently than they were on Jan 6 in the future. They elected Trump after all, who knows who they could elect next.

[Happy Lizard]

The main problem in the US is being a theist country in the 21 century, meaning a large percentage still practice religion and believe in the biblical form of god with deep intrenchment in that ideology 

California, the best model for what the US could look like moving to green (which is a rare instance in the US), but If you travel between south and west, you will think this is simply impossible in current times.

in the EU atheism is the the norm,  which is why green can exist. it's easier to move to green when you have a healthy base of orange making the average world view that of an atheist rationalist and scientific-minded. Maga if taking as a representation of the south is simply not that.

I don't see a strong shift to orange in the south, in fact it's I'm seeing the opposite people reverting to fundamental values. I suspect that the US might spilt or drag the shift to green for another 50 years. but that that's the worst case scenario and hopefully the outcome will be better somehow.

[Happy Lizard]

@AdroseAkise it's an inland terrorist group. until this downs on the American public expect lots of crap to happen. 

[DocWatts]

28 minutes ago, AdroseAkise said:

I think what January 6 represented, and why it was so scary, was the the fringe far right of American politics will act if they are pushed far enough. 

The Atlantic made a good piece regarding this: https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2021/12/donald-trump-2024-election-coup/620922/

Who knows, there is always the possibility that they will act even more violently than they were on Jan 6 in the future. They elected Trump after all, who knows who they could elect next.

Or to put it another way, the radicalization of the American right wing has furnished Trump  with what what are essentially contemporary brown shirts.

Scary stuff.

Edited December 14, 2021 by DocWatts

[Lyubov]

I don’t think we will face a civil war in the sort of classical sense of states conducting military operations against each other. What could occur is severe corrosion and a sort of collapse of the system where various institutions are in just gridlock and the government stops working properly. It’s already done this. Imagine this on steroids.