Non Existence

[Mason Riggle]

20 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

@Mason Riggle My last post might have sounded a little harsh but wasn't meant that way. ?

No worries! We are all expressions of Universal Love. 

[WokeBloke]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

‘The one who experiences thoughts’ is a thought. 

You call it a thought. The question is where it comes from. 

When you say "there is no thinker" that's just a another thought too. Why do you buy into that though as opposed to the thought?
"I create my thoughts"

[Mason Riggle]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

You call it a thought. The question is where it comes from. 

From your perspective, or mine, it doesn't come from anywhere.  This can be noticed directly.  What will I think next? I have no idea until the thought arises.  But this is true for all of experience.  It's happening.  Just the same as 'trees are growing' without a separate 'grower' inside the tree somewhere 'growing them'.. thoughts are thinking, without a separate 'thinker' who 'thinks them'. 

[Nahm]

 

Quote

When you say "there is no thinker" that's just a another thought too.

No! That’s a projection of assumption, and is not direct experience. 

Quote

Why do you buy into that though as opposed to the thought?
"I create my thoughts"

That there is someone buying into anything is also an assumption. It is the ‘lens’ of pretending one has been, where one has not yet been, so to speak. More of a veil than a lens. 

(Bowin out as not to contribute to existential rumination)

[WokeBloke]

5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

From your perspective, or mine, it doesn't come from anywhere.  This can be noticed directly.  What will I think next? I have no idea until the thought arises.  But this is true for all of experience.  It's happening.  Just the same as 'trees are growing' without a separate 'grower' inside the tree somewhere 'growing them'.. thoughts are thinking, without a separate 'thinker' who 'thinks them'. 

Just because you don't know what your next thought will be does not mean you aren't creating it. You suggest that thoughts create themselves. Thoughts do not have brains. How could they possibly be creating themselves? 

[Michal__]

1 hour ago, WokeBloke said:

that was made by the thinker.

Obviously.

[WokeBloke]

10 minutes ago, Nahm said:

 

No! That’s a projection of assumption, and is not direct experience. 

That there is someone buying into anything is also an assumption. It is the ‘lens’ of pretending one has been, where one has not yet been, so to speak. More of a veil than a lens. 

(Bowin out as not to contribute to existential rumination)

I want to understand your position. What is responsible for thought generation in your view?

[Raptorsin7]

@WokeBloke Are you saying that you choose thoughts, as in you are consciousness chooses thoughts to focus on?

I agree it doesn't make sense to say there is no thinker, because it can be interpreted as not taking responsibility for your thoughts. I don't see how you can argue for there being no you thinking, while also believing that it is possible to take responsibility for your thoughts

[Nahm]

6 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

I want to understand your position. What is responsible for thought generation in your view?

Right. Why though? The hell difference would it make? 

Instead inspect direct experience for / of these things you claim, a you, a your position, responsibility, thought generation, a your view, etc. 

6 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

I want to understand your position. What is responsible for thought generation in your view?

What is a self referential thought. 

Only cessation will do. 

(Ok back to bowin. )

[Mason Riggle]

24 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Just because you don't know what your next thought will be does not mean you aren't creating it. You suggest that thoughts create themselves. Thoughts do not have brains. How could they possibly be creating themselves? 

I'm suggesting thoughts arise the same way your hair arises.. who is growing your hair?  Are you doing that?  How hard are you trying to grow your hair? Can you grow it differently that it grows? 

How hard are you trying to think your thoughts right now? Can you think them differently than they arise? 

"You" are something that is occurring.. not something that 'does things'. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[WokeBloke]

15 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@WokeBloke Are you saying that you choose thoughts, as in you are consciousness chooses thoughts to focus on?

I agree it doesn't make sense to say there is no thinker, because it can be interpreted as not taking responsibility for your thoughts. I don't see how you can argue for there being no you thinking, while also believing that it is possible to take responsibility for your thoughts

Exactly you can't be responsible for your thoughts and also not be creating them. These are completely incompatible/conflicting views.

So either you are creating your thoughts or you are forever enslaved by thoughts that you have no control over and never will have any control over. Can't be both.

Now obviously I don't have a list of thoughts that I choose from before I create them. It seems I spontaneously create thoughts. And I can direct my thinking in a certain direction once I begin thinking.

If someone asks me do you want an apple or a piece of cake. The decision if a thought. And I go through a thinking process where I weight out the pros and cons of the various options before I finally decide apple. 

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said:

I'm suggesting thoughts arise the same way your hair arises.. who is growing your hair?  Are you doing that?  How hard are you trying to grow your hair? Can you grow it differently that it grows? 

How hard are you trying to think your thoughts right now? Can you think them differently than they arise? 

How do you account for the role of thoughts in shaping how your life unfolds. Some thoughts feel good to focus on, and some thoughts lead no where or are destructive. 

If there is no control over thoughts, then how does someone who inherited negative beliefs and thoughts transcend those beliefs and see the flipside

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

Exactly you can't be responsible for your thoughts and also not be creating them. These are completely incompatible/conflicting views.

So either you are creating your thoughts or you are forever enslaved by thoughts that you have no control over and never will have any control over. Can't be both.

Now obviously I don't have a list of thoughts that I choose from before I create them. It seems I spontaneously create thoughts. And I can direct my thinking in a certain direction once I begin thinking.

If someone asks me do you want an apple or a piece of cake. The decision if a thought. And I go through a thinking process where I weight out the pros and cons of the various options before I finally decide apple. 

Yeah this makes sense to me. I think it's about going prior to pure conscious being. Once the identity shifts from little self, to the more expansive totality of consciousness I think you can start to resolve some of these paradoxes.

And yeah I agree, this sounds like spiritual bypass/nonsense. You can't on the one hand acknowledge the role of thoughts in our suffering and well being, but then completely abdicate yourself of any responsible for the thinking process by taking a position that denies any control or acknowledgement of the process

[Mason Riggle]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

I go through a thinking process where I weight out the pros and cons of the various options before I finally decide apple. 

Why didn't you go through a different thinking process?  Or weight out different pros and cons than the ones you did?  You can not think that which does not occur to you to think, and you don't decide what occurs to you.  There is no 'you' controlling your brain.. your brain is creating 'you' in each moment, as experience.. you are 'the experience of being you' which includes 'reading this sentence'.. this is all you.. the totality of that which you are aware.  

[WokeBloke]

19 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Right. Why though? The hell difference would it make? 

Instead inspect direct experience for / of these things you claim, a you, a your position, responsibility, thought generation, a your view, etc. 

What is a self referential thought. 

Only cessation will do. 

(Ok back to bowin. )

At the end of your video you say "Creator creating creation" And yet you keep saying there is no thought creator.

Also it makes a huge difference. The difference is between being responsible for your life vs being a puppet. You are calling yourself a puppet. Also everybody here is inspecting into their experience. Your view isn't the only view. And of course you can't inquire into your experience without being the inquirer but of course there's no me in your view so your advice is completely unhelpful.

[Mason Riggle]

3 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

How do you account for the role of thoughts in shaping how your life unfolds. Some thoughts feel good to focus on, and some thoughts lead no where or are destructive. 

If there is no control over thoughts, then how does someone who inherited negative beliefs and thoughts transcend those beliefs and see the flipside

Thoughts clearly shape how my life unfolds.  My entire experience is unfolding, and I'm not doing that. Thoughts arise in awareness. Sights arise in awareness. Sounds arise in awareness. It's happening right now and you can notice this. 

[WokeBloke]

7 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

I'm suggesting thoughts arise the same way your hair arises.. who is growing your hair?  Are you doing that?  How hard are you trying to grow your hair? Can you grow it differently that it grows? 

How hard are you trying to think your thoughts right now? Can you think them differently than they arise? 

"You" are something that is occurring.. not something that 'does things'. 

Some things are automatic and handled unconsciously. However, this is not true for all things that I do. When you take a math test are you the one solving the problems?

4x + 10 = 45

what is x?

 

I am both happening and doing simultaneously.

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

Thoughts clearly shape how my life unfolds.  My entire experience is unfolding, and I'm not doing that. Thoughts arise in awareness. Sights arise in awareness. Sounds arise in awareness. It's happening right now and you can notice this. 

Yes, but what you are aware of in any given moment consists of an entire history of beliefs, sensations, emotions etc. You can simply be aware of all the trauma in your experience and it would be completely consistent with what you're saying.

When you take responsibility for inspecting and transcending the blocks in awareness what accounts for that shift?

[Mason Riggle]

2 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Some things are automatic and handled unconsciously. However, this is not true for all things that I do. When you take a math test are you the one solving the problems?

4x + 10 = 45

what is x?

 

I am both happening and doing simultaneously.

When the organism Mason Riggle takes a math test, Mason Riggle solving problems is occurring.  

I dare you, right now, to do something other than what you are about to do.  Think of a thought that's not about to occur to you. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

When the organism Mason Riggle takes a math test, solving problems is occurring.  

I dare you, right now, to do something other than what you are about to do.  Think of a thought that's not about to occur to you. 

What is reading this right now? What's there perceiving existence? 

There is a natural intelligence and order to life that can be tuned into. Unless you are at peace and believe you are done on the path, i don't see how that perspective is useful or beneficial