Where is the promissed herd immunity?

[Carl-Richard]

56 minutes ago, rnd said:

Alright. But where's the herd immunity there?

Of course statements from 1 year ago don't apply now. We didn't know how well the vaccine would fare in a population with high viral load and so many new variants. Whether or not herd immunity is possible, what we're aiming for is to minimize the damage that the virus is causing to society, which is a complex equation (it's not just about death rate), and we know that vaccines help.

[rnd]

Ahhhh, those people (governments, toxic vaccine-warriours, most doctors) who assumed they knew -- didn't know..... I see.... that explains everything!

But tell me:

how did and do vaccine-sceptics DO know that? They were able to forsee that our knowledge could be limited then, and precisely because of that they were, and some are, against mass vaccination?


Does the knowledge of pro-vaccine people incorporate the fact that, the same way, there might be something unknown now, again, about side-effects of these "safe" c-19 vaccines?

Edited December 12, 2021 by rnd

[Carl-Richard]

52 minutes ago, rnd said:

Ahhhh, those people (governments, toxic vaccine-warriours, most doctors) who assumed they knew -- didn't know..... I see.... that explains everything!

But tell me:

how did and do vaccine-sceptics DO know that? They were able to forsee that our knowledge could be limited then, and precisely because of that they were, and some are, against mass vaccination?


Does the knowledge of pro-vaccine people incorporate the fact that, the same way, there might be something unknown now, again, about side-effects of these "safe" c-19 vaccines?

If we didn't vaccinate the population, you wouldn't have a hospital to go to and you would most likely know somebody who died from COVID-19. You're still not understanding the concept of minimizing risk. I swear it's the same thing in every thread: misunderstanding probabilistic measures and misrepresenting statistics.

[Johnny Galt]

@Carl-Richard I'm curious, do you feel they could have done a better job at minimizing risk? and if so what would you suggest?

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Galt said:

@Carl-Richard I'm curious, do you feel they could have done a better job at minimizing risk? and if so what would you suggest?

Yeah. Lock up all the anti-vaxxers

[Johnny Galt]

@Carl-Richard :P

I'm serious though, what else do you think we could be doing?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Johnny Galt

[rnd]

Covid-19: Scotland’s official figures almost testify to ‘pandemic of the fully vaccinated’

https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/modern-day-censorship/covid-19-fully-vaccinated-account-for-9-in-every-10-covid-19-deaths-in-scotland-since-august-according-to-latest-official-data/

Using the same logic,  pro-vaxxers should be locked up then.
 

[rnd]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

If we didn't vaccinate the population, you wouldn't have a hospital to go to and you would most likely know somebody who died from COVID-19. You're still not understanding the concept of minimizing risk. I swear it's the same thing in every thread: misunderstanding probabilistic measures and misrepresenting statistics.

You've just admited that "we didn't know in the past", but are trying to predict what would've happened otherwise.

Or vise versa: nothing would have happened, because c-19 isn't a bubonic plague. As nothing outlandish happens with  Influenza pandemic which happens every year or two, in many countries. And it's happening RIGHT NOW in Rio de Janeiro where I am now, and the figures are way higher than from c-19. But every idiot is busy with looking at c-19.


---

Protection and minimising a risk are about taking care about your heath, by a) proper food b) proper lifestyle
and not by injecting experimental serum into your body, especially every half a year.

Edited December 13, 2021 by rnd

[Carl-Richard]

21 minutes ago, rnd said:

You've just admited that "we didn't know in the past", but are trying to predict what would've happened otherwise.

There is a difference between a prospective and a retrospective analysis. You have much more data available in the latter. This is getting stupider by the minute.

 

32 minutes ago, rnd said:

Or vise versa: nothing would have happened, because c-19 isn't a bubonic plague. As nothing outlandish happens with  Influenza pandemic which happens every year or two, in many countries. And it's happening RIGHT NOW in Rio de Janeiro where I am now, and the figures are way higher than from c-19. But every idiot pays attention to c-19.

What do you mean nothing would've happened? We know that unvaccinated people are more likely to get infected and get overwhelmingly more severe symptoms than vaccinated people, and these people put a strain on the hospitals. Even despite vaccinating so many people, the hospitals have still been struggling.

 

25 minutes ago, rnd said:

Protection and minimising a risk are about taking care about your heath, by a) proper food b) proper lifestyle
and not by injecting experimental serum into your body, especially every half a year.

There is individual responsibility and then there is collective responsibility. 

[Arcangelo]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yeah. Lock up all the anti-vaxxers

This

what

provaxxers

have

to

do:

 

[Carl-Richard]

54 minutes ago, rnd said:

Covid-19: Scotland’s official figures almost testify to ‘pandemic of the fully vaccinated’

https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/modern-day-censorship/covid-19-fully-vaccinated-account-for-9-in-every-10-covid-19-deaths-in-scotland-since-august-according-to-latest-official-data/

Using the same logic,  pro-vaxxers should be locked up then.

Did the report control for age? Most unvaccinated people are younger healthy people which might explain why the fatality rate is lower.

[Arcangelo]

^It's the  shot + the 3 boosters.

[rnd]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Did the report control for age? Most unvaccinated people are younger healthy people which might explain why the fatality rate is higher for the vaccinated people.

You adjust your position depending on what's more convenient. Not?

So, does remaining healthy and alive in this global situation have to do more with:
a) one's current health / age  or
b) vaccination status

?
 

Edited December 13, 2021 by rnd

[Carl-Richard]

15 minutes ago, rnd said:

You adjust your position depending on what's more convenient. Not?

If you're linking to an article that says "hospitalized vaccinated people are 144% more likely to die than hospitalized unvaccinated people", I do think it's suiting to elaborate on what those numbers really mean. Remember what I told you about representing statistics accurately?

I also don't think I have to mention that vaccinated people generally outnumber the unvaccinated by a factor of ~5, which combined with the age-related health discrepancy, is the reason why more of them are hospitalized.

 

15 minutes ago, rnd said:

So, does remaining healthy and alive have to do more with: a) one's health / age or b) vaccination status?

I would say a 20 year old with no chronic illnesses is better off than an 70 year old with obesity, diabetes and heart disease, yes. 

If the only thing I have to do here is to deal with people's incompetence with numbers, I will close the thread. To say that this is a repeating trend is an understatement.

[Carl-Richard]

@rnd

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

Here is an interactive graph where you can control for age groups (scroll down a bit and look for the button "change age group" in the top-left corner). Granted, it's not the same data set (it's from the US and doesn't deal with hospitalizations). Then again, the hospitalization factor only serves to obfuscate the numbers as I've pointed out. What we actually care about is the actual death rates. You can still see the effects from the age-related health discrepancy if you for instance compare 18-29 with 65-79.

[rnd]

@Carl-Richard You've first  divided people by vaccinated-unvaccinated and blamed unvaccinated for everything. 
Now, after I've shown you data that dispooves you and shows that vaccinated are the ones to blame too, increasingly,  you're trying to change your mind and adjust for age and heath as well. 

Sneaky.

---

* Healthy person recovers with no problem, even without a vaccine.

* Very unhealthy person dies, even with a vaccine.

* Some what healthy-unhealthy may benefit from those experimental vaccines. But the percentage of such people is low; 5-10% I guess. And they're the ones who probably should take those vaccines, as FOR THOSE people THOSE experimental vaccines may be beneficial.


 

Edited December 13, 2021 by rnd

[Tanz]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:54 AM, rnd said:

In the 1st world countries the vaccination rate is 60...90%, even close to 100% in some smaller countries.
For the herd immunity around 60% is enough.

So, where is the herd immunity promissed by the governemtns and mass media, by "doctors",  by vaccinated warriours, around a year ago?
Everyone has forgotten already?

Instead, there're new lockdowns, more cases and more deaths in the most vaccinated countries. In some countries, more so than when noone was vaccinated.
More vaccinated, more cases, and more deaths, that is. Not less, not the same, but more!

Who, or what, to blame this time?

Where is that promissed heard immunity?

They can promise herd immunity when they make another 30+++ billion next year and the following. Capitalism baby ya!

[Tanz]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:54 AM, rnd said:

In the 1st world countries the vaccination rate is 60...90%, even close to 100% in some smaller countries.
For the herd immunity around 60% is enough.

So, where is the herd immunity promissed by the governemtns and mass media, by "doctors",  by vaccinated warriours, around a year ago?
Everyone has forgotten already?

Instead, there're new lockdowns, more cases and more deaths in the most vaccinated countries. In some countries, more so than when noone was vaccinated.
More vaccinated, more cases, and more deaths, that is. Not less, not the same, but more!

Who, or what, to blame this time?

Where is that promissed heard immunity?

They can promise herd immunity when they make another 30+++ billion next year and the following. Capitalism baby ya!

[Carl-Richard]

11 minutes ago, rnd said:

@Carl-Richard You've first here divided people by vaccinated-unvaccinated and blamed unvaccinated for everything.  But now, after I've shown you data that dispooves you and shows that vaccinated are the ones to blame too, increasengly,  you're trying to change your mind and adjust for age and heath as well.  Sneaky.

---

* Healthy person recovers with no problem, even without a vaccine.

* Very unhealthy person dies, even with a vaccine.

* Some what healthy-unhealthy may benefit from those experimental vaccines. But the percentage of such people is low; 5-10% I guess. And they're the ones who probably should take those vaccines, as FOR THOSE people THOSE experimental vaccines may be beneficial.

I'm sorry. I'll reiterate: if you don't know how to represent statistics accurately and if you don't understand the reasoning behind minimizing risk, we can't have a discussion about COVID-19.