Is there an I?

[Raptorsin7]

@Salvijus I've only ever experienced it's dissolution on psychedelics. It's like you become aware of suffering, then you notice all the suffering comes from your sense of being a self. When you bring attention to that self and you keep being aware, it's like awareness dissolves the sense of I am a self, and only awareness remains. And you enter into a state of being where you are fully connected to everything and it's just awareness. My perception becomes super clear and there's no sense of separation from anything

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Salvijus I've only ever experienced it's dissolution on psychedelics. It's like you become aware of suffering, then you notice all the suffering comes from your sense of being a self. When you bring attention to that self and you keep being aware, it's like awareness dissolves the sense of I am a self, and only awareness remains. And you enter into a state of being where you are fully connected to everything and it's just awareness. My perception becomes super clear and there's no sense of separation from anything

It's the same thing. Like I sayed when seeking and psychological seeker stops an implosian of energy will happen and profound sense of being will come. Either you do this by cranking up the energies like through psychedelics or kriya yoga. Or you do this through intense self-inquiry. The end goal is the same, an insane implosian of energy in your head and the sense of doer is no more. Just nondual beingness.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Salvijus

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

It's the same thing. Like I sayed when seeking and psychological seeker stops an implosian of energy will happen and profound sense of being will come. Either you do this by cranking up the energies like through psychedelics or kriya yoga. Or you do this through intense self-inquiry. The end goal is the same, an insane energy in your head and the sense of doer is no more. Just nondual beingness.

I can't do it sober. Even though I do self inquiry, I feel like i'm making more progress but still not even close to psychs. 

I can feel the sense of being myself in self inquiry, but it's like there isn't enough strength with sober awareness to dissolve the sense of me and shift into that profound interconnected being

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I can't do it sober. Even though I do self inquiry, I feel like i'm making more progress but still not even close to psychs. 

I can feel the sense of being myself in self inquiry, but it's like there isn't enough strength with sober awareness to dissolve the sense of me and shift into that profound interconnected being

Yea I mean of course. Sober awakening is a gradual process. That energy you feel in your forehead will intensify overtime. At some point it will hit the peak. It's a lifelong process of intensification. Could even do mahasamdhi if it becomes too intense. The intensity of that energy and your level of awareness are the same. When you do it soberly this energy and awareness becomes permenant not like on psychedelics. That's what baseline level of awareness means. That's how you come into permenant state of presence. It happens automatically when the intensity of energy goes beyond a certain threshold.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

@Raptorsin7 I don't know If I answered it properly. 

The reason it's easier on psychedelics is because psychedelics unload enourmous energy in the body momenteraly. That energy gives you the power to penetrate through the self. Maybe this is better answer. But that energy you unload comes at a cost somehow. It's an energy that you drain from your energy reservours. So... complex subject it is.

[WelcometoReality]

4 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Does the word I refer to a real being/thing/subject/etc?

I feel like I'm going crazy. every time I say I, I wonder if it could be referring to literally nothing. 

Now I know you can't convince me but I just want to hear your opinion.

If I ask you who or what are you? What is your response?

If you experience yourself to be a person inside your body then that's your experience.

Or are you experiencing yourself to be nothing and everything, no borders?

Or maybe you are nothing that is experiencing everything else?

There are stages and each stage is experienced differently and no stage is more true than another.

[tsuki]

"I" exists as a thought. Even though it claims that the subject is an object (I am this, I am that), this is impossible.

[Raptorsin7]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

@Raptorsin7 I don't know If I answered it properly. 

The reason it's easier on psychedelics is because psychedelics unload enourmous energy in the body momenteraly. That energy gives you the power to penetrate through the self. Maybe this is better answer. But that energy you unload comes at a cost somehow. It's an energy that you drain from your energy reservours. So... complex subject it is.

But you can do it without psychidelics right?

I don't want to wait a life time to dissolve the tension. Whatever needs to be done will be done. 

I haven't done psychs in 6 months or so but it may be time to reintroduce them

I don't believe your point about psychs draining your energy reserves. Think about how low energy most people are normally. It's not that their reserves are low, it's that they don't know how to access the energy that is within them. I think psychs show you how to tap into that innate energy. 

Hey, I wonder if this exercise can be useful to you. Can you make a list of both positive and negative qualities and psychidelics for yourself. I believe you have a negative bias aganst psychs, but the list may help to show that psychs are neutral, they have good and bad elements to them.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[TDLH]

7 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Does the word I refer to a real being/thing/subject/etc?

I feel like I'm going crazy. every time I say I, I wonder if it could be referring to literally nothing. 

Now I know you can't convince me but I just want to hear your opinion.

I struggled with the “I” word for years.  But after having one of several Aya DMT trips, I substituted it with “ME”.  It’s not perfect, but it’s the closest Me can get to explain the awareness beyond words!   Lol…..

The more aware “Me” became, the more difficult it was for Me to use words to describe awareness and knowingness.  (Don’t get caught up with my grammatical use of the word ME, just having some fun!)

It’s like the words “Nothingness and Somethingness”.  I struggled for years with these words after experiencing a state of no-thought, no-form, no-universe, no-nothingness/somethingness during my second Aya experience, and yet, I was aware of a “Me”-ness that was beyond sensations and thought (for lake of better words.).

Some people use the word Absolute God to express singular, or combined meanings and words of; nothingness, somethingness, love, oneness, void, etc.  But I struggled with the word “God”.  Perhaps because of the dogmas that can, and are subconsciously attached to deep ingrained beliefs and emotions of the word!

“Me” has since found the words “All-That-Is”, which (for Me) best describes the word God and the words Nothingness, somethingness, love, etc. which point to the state of awareness that cannot be defined, explained, or touched with a singular thought, or patterns of thoughts! 

“Me” has not found dogmas attached to “Is”, or “Is-ness”, which in the combined words of “All-That-Is”, embraces all words, thoughts, beliefs, emotions consciousness, and all awareness.

Just a few thoughts, images, beliefs “Me” wanted to share!     LOL…..

Edited December 10, 2021 by TDLH

[Mason Riggle]

@WokeBloke this all depends on how "I" is defined. 

When people (human organisms) talk about, or think about, 'themselves', there is this tendency to imagine a 'separate self' which exists somewhere inside the body, typically inside the head, behind the eyes somewhere, who is not only witness to what the organism is experiencing, but also controller of what the organism is doing.

But this is a mistake. 

We may consider, for example, what we mean when we say something like, 'I am growing hair on my head.'  It's very apparent here that the "I" who is 'growing hair' is 'the entire organism'... 'the organism Mason Riggle is growing hair on his head.'   We may recognize that there's nothing that the organism Mason Riggle has to do in order to 'grow hair', and that 'growing hair' is something organisms do (or don't do) automatically.  It's effortless. And, it's fairly easy to notice that there is no separate 'grower' of hair somewhere inside organisms.. 

(we may also note the arbitrary nature of what is considered to be 'the grower of hair'.. is the head growing hair? or is it the skin? or maybe the brain? The whole organism? Maybe it's Earth that's 'growing hair'?  After all.. who grows the apples? Is it the branches of the apple trees? The whole tree? The orchard? The farmer? Is the Universe busy growing apples? It seems so.. apples are growing, after all.)

Now, the same is true for 'thinking', except here is where the 'mistake' occurs.   When we say or think, "I am thinking about going to the store.", there is this tendency to imagine a separate 'locus of attention' or 'self' which is 'inside our organism' somewhere who is 'aware of the thoughts' and who is also 'author of the thoughts'.  But this isn't accurate.  Organisms are 'thinking' the same way organisms are 'growing hair'.. that is to say, thinking happens automatically.  You can't 'think a thought before you think it'.. thought merely 'arises', the same way 'hair grows'.. 

The same way there really is no 'grower of hair' inside me somewhere, there is also no 'thinker of thoughts' inside me.. there is just my organism, doing what it does... making red blood cells, digesting food, regulating temperature, breathing, thinking, hearing, feeling.. and it does these things 'all by itself'.   It's doing these things right now, effortlessly.  It takes no effort from 'me' to 'be me'.  Rather, I (however "I" is defined, doesn't matter.. some imaginary locus of attention, or the entire Universe, or anywhere in between) am 'being myself', all the time, effortlessly.  There's literally nothing to do. It's already happening, and 'you' aren't 'doing it'.. 'you' are occurring now, as a thought, right along with everything else that's occurring. 

"What we mistake to be the thinker of thoughts, is just more thought, occurring now." - Sam Harris

Edited December 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[WelcometoReality]

The eye can't see itself.

The same is true for the I that you are.

All thoughts and sensory experience can be seen so they  are not what you essentially are.

So in that sense you are a complete mystery.

[Mason Riggle]

@WelcometoReality

"I have no other self than the totality of things of which I am aware." - Alan Watts

Basically, "I" am 'my entire experience'.. and not 'the experiencer of experience'. 

[WelcometoReality]

1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said:

@WelcometoReality

"I have no other self than the totality of things of which I am aware." - Alan Watts

Basically, "I" am 'my entire experience'.. and not 'the experiencer of experience'. 

And has that been realized/is that experienced right now?

Or is it only believed and something other is experienced?

Someone else might experience things differently are their experience false?

3 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

If I ask you who or what are you? What is your response?

If you experience yourself to be a person inside your body then that's your experience.

Or are you experiencing yourself to be nothing and everything, no borders?

Or maybe you are nothing that is experiencing everything else?

There are stages and each stage is experienced differently and no stage is more true than another.

 

[Mason Riggle]

1 minute ago, WelcometoReality said:

And has that been realized/is that experienced right now?

It's always now. 

There are no false experiences. Everything is exactly as it seems, until it seems otherwise, in which case, everything is still exactly how it seems. 

If [reality] seems 'one way' and turns out to be 'another way'... then 'seeming one way that turns out to be another way' is exactly how it seems, when it seems that way.  

 

[Nahm]

4 hours ago, Salvijus said:

But that energy you unload comes at a cost somehow. It's an energy that you drain from your energy reservours. So... complex subject it is.

Not complex, simple and perhaps more a matter of inspection. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, thus no cost is possible. 

[Zeroguy]

7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Not complex, simple and perhaps more a matter of inspection. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, thus no cost is possible. 

Love is eternal and Infinite forever.Smile on your faces brothers/sisters.

Why you need "I" or desire to be separate.It's just a mind .Who gives a shit.Unify it is that simple.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zeroguy

[Salvijus]

@Raptorsin7 well I don't really want to go very deep into it because I don't understand it fully.

But in general, it's like coffee. Coffee actually is a poison, and it tastes horrible without sugar and milk. People put this poison into their body and body is being forced to fight this poison so it releases a certain amount of energy from energy resurvoirs. Then people think wow it's great, I feel so much energy but what they don’t realize is that they are draining it. Not cultivating it. And when the coffee wears out they have less energy than before.

It's the same with psychedelics. It's a posion. But a different type of poison that triggers a different response. It forces a different kind of energy, a spiritual energy or kundalini energy we could call it for lack of better word. In daoism and yoga they have many different names for different energies, it's a complex thing. 

So this energy is being drained not cultivated. That's the difference between a sober sage and a psychedelic user, one looks like a drained vegetable another is glowing like a god or a deity with enourmous energy around them.

Now there are ways of using psychedelics for your growth. Some yogis use scorpion poison and snake venom poison or mercury poison to trigger the same effect that these psychedelics do. But I don't know much about it. It's a very dangerous thing to do without proper guidence I would say. There are also ways of being drunk on alcohol 24/7 and reach enlightenment in this way. But I don't recommend somebody tries this on their own. It wouldn't be a happy ending imo.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Salvijus

[WelcometoReality]

40 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

It's always now. 

There are no false experiences. Everything is exactly as it seems, until it seems otherwise, in which case, everything is still exactly how it seems. 

If [reality] seems 'one way' and turns out to be 'another way'... then 'seeming one way that turns out to be another way' is exactly how it seems, when it seems that way.  

^ That's an argument killer right here. ^

?

[Raptorsin7]

@Salvijus The poison analogy is a good one. I always thought psychidelics were a kind of poison that forced your body and system to its limit and then thats why it can lead to such dramatic shifts.

So you think yoga is the best path to develop your energy sober right?

[RMQualtrough]

I think you are referring to nothing when you say "I", but that is different from not being. It seems to me that nothingness is the core of existence itself.