Why are modern men so weak?

[Boethius]

Powerful straight white men have been the ones in control of our society for long enough! It's time to create a space at the table for women, POC, and the LGBTQIA+ community. None of the groups of people I just listed benefit from selling men a message that they need to be tough and go beat the sh** out of their competitors. If straight men can't sort themselves out, then that's on them.

[Leo Gura]

Redpill is toxic as fuck.

[mememe]

can you please also rewatch the matrix until the point where you hit yourself?

Edited December 9, 2021 by mememe
for whom it might concern

[vizual]

6 minutes ago, Shin said:

I didn't say to do nothing, just that acceptance and understanding is much much better if you want to go through anything in life than demonization and blaming

I'm the first one to roll my eyes and say that toxic green go way to far, stage orange and green hates me

I agree about being careful about demonization and blaming. But on the other hand, always approaching everything from a relativist meta-perspective can also be used as an egoic self deception. The ego can use these meta perspectives to not put its own skin in the game to keep itself save, and prolong its delusion. 

[Lyubov]

Modern men aren't weak per-say, their role has changed though which makes them appear more weak. This is some Joe Rogan redpill bullshit to complain about this. Western society has just changed and masculinity and the role of the man is being sort of reevaluated and reworked into something slightly different than what it was in the past. Growing pains so to speak. You could inversely say why are western women more manly today. They sort of are in way but have also had to pick up different roles to survive in modern society. 

[Vivaldo]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

@Vivaldo  Your interpretation of the film is incomplete. it does not incorporate the existence of space-monkeys, men that followed Tyler into their own demise, and were trained by being dehumanized.

In truth, Fight-club is a commentary on how a persons interior rots when they follow conventional, pre-destined paths led out by society. This is exemplified by the protagonist, a nameless character that is deeply unhappy with his life, to the point where he has a schizophrenic breakdown where he develops an alter-ego to vent his frustrations. Tyler is, in essence, the protagonist's will to destroy that is created because of repressed unhappiness and status games. Tyler's destructive nature is shown throughout the film and he is not an edgy character that is detached from society. He is actively destructive towards himself, other people and institutions. He hates himself, Marla, and space-monkeys. Ultimately, he shoots the protagonist in the face and blows up Wall street.

Weak, purposeless men that are not connected to themselves are attracted to Tyler for the same reason the Protagonist created him. If you find Tyler attractive, watch the hell out.

 

Let me say this again. Tyler is not a strong character, a perfect man. Tyler is the embodiment of repressed anger and destruction that men seek when they are unhappy. Fight club is a study on trauma and how it shows up in masculine expression.

Ok I understand....

The movie also doesn't provide any solutions to these problems, rather confuses us with more chaos.

[Vivaldo]

@itachi uchiha ok. I will read 

@Knowledge Hoarder Yes that's true! If we as all men can do this individually then society will reach an equilibrium.@vizual sadly that's true. We are a generation of men raised by women, without a strong man/father to lead us. That makes us do dependent on others. We aught to be self reliant.

1 hour ago, itachi uchiha said:

@vizual if men are deprived of masculinity  and make them docile,it is easy to control them

That's why they put Oxygen masks on planes?@Leo Gura

[Vivaldo]

@Leo Gura  yeah that's why parenting is so goddam challenging! I wonder why they never taught us how to be good parents.@vizual yeah man gotta take action collectively 

 

 

[mandyjw]

Because many are trying to avoid thinking of themselves as weak with some false idea of strength and they don't do what they are truly inclined to do, or say what they are inclined to say. Trying not to be weak actually becomes an inhibition, and inhibitions cut ourselves off from true strength.

If something like this makes you uncomfortable then it might be worth considering that your idea(l) of a man is cutting you off from what you really want to do in life. 

 

[bloomer]

@Vivaldo

3 hours ago, Vivaldo said:

I recently rewatched the cult classic Fight Club by Fincher.

You should read the book if you liked the movie. The film is an obvious example of a movie being better than a book but its still worth a read. But I messed around for a week and made a Fight Club documentary of sorts compiling a dozen videos and cutting them all together into a long analysis. If you liked the movie and are more interested in analysing you should check out what I made because it might interest you and took me a while to put together. 

3 hours ago, Vivaldo said:

I realised that the entire movie is about how a man struggles to find his place in society. He then envisions himself as the perfect version of himself to express his repressed emotions. These men start a fight club were they supposedly find relief after beating the shit out of each other which apparently is leading them to be more manly.... He also aspires for a strong father figure.

This flick directly targets the insecurities of men and makes us wonder why modern men are so juvenile and weak. As this is detrimental to both men and women in a larger context.

"Existentialist moment, where you realize that you have to give your youth to something, you're not going to live forever. It's a very Martin Heidegger moment, you have to become a being living towards death, you're not going to live forever, you have to give your life to something." - Chuck Palahniuk

Yeah Tyler Durden (the father figure) is a manifestation of the Jungian shadow.  Jung also theorised that neurosis and mental illnesses are caused by repression and neglection of our values. 

 Tyler Durden being the narrators compensation for his day life, of tedious misery and quit desperation. Working in an office where you are constantly aware of the passage of time, watching your life drift away from you.

"…in offices where every day they felt their lives end one hour at a time."

I believe that in a society where masculinity is repressed, and we are deprived of our fathers guidance, of a mentor, in a world of illusion, small things make a big difference. Well seemingly small things, but they amount to make quite large things, that weigh us down with the mundanity of life, a life where we are deprived of our natural desires, and punished for our natural instincts. That's modern society. 

When you feel things are "out of sync" these days, when you look at people who are miserable and unhappy and struggling desperately to find meaning in this world, when you ask what motivates the clown-world religious fervor. It stems from the reality that many people are no longer necessary to existence, and are clamoring frantically to justify their existence to an uncaring and amoral universe. Fight Club is about that, an how men, particularly a man, the narrator, or hero goes about trying to deal with it. To deal with his own mortality and lack of purpose. To try to find serenity. 

"If you're a male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for god. And if you never knew your father, if your father bails out on you and is never home, what do you believe about god? What you end up doing, is you spend your life searching for a father and God."

You see, if you grow up in a Western country today, and probably others too although I can’t speak to those (some Asian countries seem to not be included) you grow up with basically no expectations for you, your life, or how you spend your precious moments. Your parents and everyone around you have completely disregarded the realities of existence and to the extent they are aware of them, they simply tune them out and look in the other direction. A father no longer has a responsibility to put his son to work, to give him a skill, or an education, or a craft, or teach him about the ways of life which aren’t repeated on the television screen. At most, he has a responsibility to simply make sure the son doesn’t die or end up in prison and typically, he doesn’t even feel that responsibility. You live in a society where a vague notion of youth is extended to people even in their 30s and thus, at the age of 18, 22, 25, you’re free to waste your life on whatever mindless bullshit you please and not only will no one denigrate it but they’ll actually encourage it.

“My father never went to college so it was really important I go to college. After college, I called him long distance and said, now what?"

"My dad didn’t know."

"When I got a job and turned twenty-five, long distance, I said, now what?"

"My dad didn’t know, so he said, get married."

"I’m a thirty-year-old boy, and I’m wondering if another woman is really the answer I need."

"What happens at fight club doesn’t happen in words. Some guys need a fight every week. This week, Tyler says it’s the first fifty guys through the door and that’s it. No more."

How many fathers revel in their son going off to college and his tales of chasing pussy, getting blackout drunk, doing drugs, and getting into bar fights, being an embarrassment to the family name? He revels in it as a way to recall nostalgia for youth. His son is “cool” and that’s what really matters right? Even though, in the back of his head he knows that while none of those things in a vacuum undermine life, they do undermine life when they take the place of more substantial experiences in life. How many people here actually got good advice from their parents? How many have parents on their 2nd or 3rd divorce who will still happily give their young son or daughter relationship advice along the (extremely vague) lines of “just worry about your career” such that the child will inevitably look up at 32 with no friends, no partner, no particular endeavours, and maybe not even a career?

A large reason so many men today are weak is because they've been deprived of any values, guidance or father figure or role model. 

1/2

[Vivaldo]

@Leo Gura ? agreed@Knowledge Hoarder yeah fuck redpill.

[bloomer]

4 hours ago, Vivaldo said:

Let me know why do you think men are struggling and the possible solutions.

Well I mentioned why I they're struggling in the other post but I'll add some more reasons. My main point was that the modern world is demoralizing the masculine spirit, this is both intentional and a natural result of industrialization and the convenience of modern life, which deprives man of any meaning and purpose.  Masculinity is not useful or perceived as not useful, anymore, in wider society. Why? There’s no need for it anymore.

"The gyms you go to are crowded with guys trying to look like men, as if being a man means looking the way a sculptor or art director says."

Masculinity is not just something that you can commodify and sell, turn into some product.  It's not what its sold to us as, with some celebrity footballer or actor, on some cologne advertisement, because masculinity is the antithesis of mindless consumption, the  antithesis of the need to please and impress.

These are feminine. Masculinity is not what contemporary culture portrays it as. The only reason we can afford to be so disconnected from the truth, is because life is so easy, it means we don’t see work as strenuous, or the world as unsafe, or war as a necessity, and so the implicitly violent and harsh realities of masculinity become something to cast off rather than to be appreciated. To commodify rather than to cherish. This casting off of masculinity is what books like Fight Club.

"The System needs a population that is meek, nonviolent, domesticated, docile, and obedient. It needs to avoid any conflict or disruption that could interfere with the orderly functioning of the social machine. In addition to suppressing racial, ethnic, religious, and other group hostilities, it also has to suppress or harness for its own advantage all other tendencies that could lead to disruption or disorder, such as machismo, aggressive impulses, and any inclination to violence." - Ted Kaczynski

We should retain the spirit of man that Ted intended to liberate. Well if you think about it, Ted and Tyler and very similar anarchistic firgures. Not saying I agree with Ted but I appreciate some of his points lol. Bombing unis is stupid and wrong. I'm not for fighting a futile battle. I instead believe that the best solution to revive the masculine spirit is to exploit the industrial and modern society for our own artistic and ideological desires. Since even in pre-industrial society we would not have wanted to submit to the feminized, academic and torpid hedonistic life. 

Speaking of the spirit of man, there is another good and pertinent Fight Club quote below that further explores this idea of what exactly the spirit of man is.

"Disaster is a natural part of my evolution, towards tragedy and dissolution. I'm breaking my attachment to physical power and possessions, because only through destroying myself can I discover the greater power of my spirit. The liberator who destroys my property is fighting to save my spirit. The teacher who clears all possessions from my path will set me free."

Struggle is vital for finding purpose and meaning in life. When deprived of real struggle, with the comfort of modern life, we atrophy and break down. AKA become feminized. One because we have no father guiding us and no shared values to shape us and two because of hedonism.

By breaking our attachments with hedonism and with the need for escapism (which is a large part of self actualization) we can start to reclaim our masculinity. In our society tending toward automation, we begin to find the masculine traits that had previously served to enmesh men in specific kinds of physical labour a threat when undirected. A society valuing games and leisure begins to evolve. Ideally we would have found ourselves heading toward one based around physical games and outdoor activities, but instead, for whatever reason, we have chosen to become masters of virtual environments where these masculine traits are needed even less, or simply simulated when called upon. Society no longer values 4 important things required for letting masculinity flourish.

1. Religion

2. Family

3. Men

4. Culture

We have no god. God is dead and all that jazz.

We have no family. The family structure is under constant attack and is fucked,

We have no positive male role models. 

We have no country. We have this entho masochistic worldview where the west is evil and the root of the worlds ills.

We have no purpose, because we have none of the things that used to give us purpose.

“We don’t have a great war in our generation, or a great depression, but we do, we have a great war of the spirit. We have a great revolution against the culture. The great depression is our lives. We have a spiritual depression."

All of these are things that have historically driven men to accomplish great things and every single one has been taken from us.

Men are becoming disillusioned from society for this reason. Because modern societies are dogshit. They're soulless. They're evil. Life is commodified. Modern society has no right to exist. You can intellectualize and philosophize ad nauseam but the answer is simple and obvious: if young men don't want to participate in your society, that's because your society is a failure, and needs to be demolished.

Society has made it clear that men aren't wanted, and every attempt to make something of ourselves is met with contempt and ridicule. Every time we try to rise to the occasion, we are shot down or punished. The worst part however, is that even when you have attained something like a family or career, it can be taken away from you at any moment. Men have run the cost benefit analysis. Trying is a net loss. Not trying is net neutral. Being masculine is a loss. 

So men are fine with their beer and videogames. 

They don't even have the will to start creating a new paradigm and finding new meaning in industrialization and modernization, they stew in resentment -- a modern-day slave morality. Which is really just a result of escapism and those bread and circuses and the absence of a father guiding them.

This stewing in resentment is the inevitable resulting mentality of the modern man, the reason you don't is again, to reclaim and re-establish the masculine spirit that gives meaning. Men, when fully realized, have an innate tendency towards independence and toward forming their own systems, which they then seek to impose on the world. This is the whole story of history until now. This is your Napoleons and Cesars and Charlemagnes, the men who shaped history, the Nietzchean ubermensches.

Contemporary corporate capitalism however is a distributed, globalized, nonlocal system of conformist integration. It loathes anyone with the balls to contest it. Women have their qualities, and I do not intend to make this anymore misogynist than it needs to be lol. But they are more inclined to behave as integrated nodes in a harmonious network of community. How many female warlords has there been? And I don't mean to suggest that there should be warlords, or that men are not the most destructive sex. I just mean that sociobiologically men have a drive that women tend to lack. I don't know where I was going with this lol. Lost my point. Ahhh I'm too lazy and typing this up has started to bore me. 

2/2

ps. I know this is long, didn't realise I had spent so much time writing which is why I stopped.

Edited December 9, 2021 by bloomer

[itachi uchiha]

Way of men by jack donovan will help bring back your masculinity back.i recommend every man on the planet read this

[Gesundheit2]

Easy question.

Modern survival does not require physical strength as much as intellectual strength (which doesn't necessarily equal intelligence, btw). Modern jobs don't require muscles as much as brains. Technology has become the muscles. Even farming and building have now become relatively easy as long as you have the mental skills. Skill is now more important than power, because power is guaranteed through technology.

Even war is now less dependent on physical strength because of modern weapons. You don't need to be strong to survive anymore. Your government basically protects you, so you don't even have to worry about your safety for the majority of your life.

None of that was the case before modern technology, so men had to be strong back then as an obligation.

2000 years ago, it didn't matter much if you were smart or educated. In today's world, the biggest brains survive the most.

[Opo]

1 hour ago, itachi uchiha said:

Way of men by jack donovan will help bring back your masculinity back.i recommend every man on the planet read this

What's masculinity to you? 

[ValiantSalvatore]

Just reading the blue truth by david deida as well as the way of superior men shows me the brutal nature of masculinity/masculine energy in a sense. It is unforgiving and relentless. You give give and give and are not supposed to be tainted/moved by your giving moving towards your purpose. Basically being unmoveable in that sense and to not falter on your path is what makes a man strong or the core essence / feeling reality / nature of a masculine driven being. Giving your masculine gifts as divine presence, divine purpose etc. Is what makes a man strong in my opinion having and following his vision. 

The blue truth is especially good opened my eyes about what it means to be a man on a virtue level perspective. 

For instance even when I chicken out approaching I do think it shows the virtue of courage and I am unsure what is wrong with that for instance.

I do think "system wise" David Deida has the best approach to becoming a real man from a higher point of view as well as including sexuality. Yet, the praticalities about dating are just not covered in there. 

I am still unsure about red pill stuff I consumed some of it by just buying books that I am interested in and not knowing they were red pill according to some lexicon. For instance.

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/red-pill
https://thepowermoves.com/best-red-pill-books/

What is so super toxic about the information contained in some of these books? If David Deida is red pill then there is no hope for anything anymore. 

I never looked deeply into red pill, yet I do think a lot of people just miss use information and made the repute of red pill community as well as it's members very negative. I don't know about it's inside though.

Is this stuff really red pill or are people just not very smart and there is an issue with the original meaning of the concept red pill. Is it not supposed to show some truth about how stuff works?
 

Edited December 9, 2021 by ValiantSalvatore

[hoodrow trillson]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Redpill is toxic as fuck.

Redpill just makes low quality men think they're hot shit and become unnecessarily aggressive towards women.  

All they do is scare all the hoes away.  Redpill men are so fucking annoying lol.

[kieranperez]

9 hours ago, Vivaldo said:

Watch the flick, it's a case study of depressed men

You have very loose standards if you call that movie an actual case study of anything…

[Jacob Morres]

I don't think previous generations were stronger though. Our previous generations were fucked up and traumatized... 

I think people are glorifying the past generations. They were way more unconscious as a whole than today's people 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Just reading the blue truth by david deida as well as the way of superior men shows me the brutal nature of masculinity/masculine energy in a sense. It is unforgiving and relentless. You give give and give and are not supposed to be tainted/moved by your giving moving towards your purpose. Basically being unmoveable in that sense and to not falter on your path is what makes a man strong or the core essence / feeling reality / nature of a masculine driven being. Giving your masculine gifts as divine presence, divine purpose etc. Is what makes a man strong in my opinion having and following his vision. 

First off, David Deida isn't Red Pill, at least not the one book by hime I have read twice now (Way of the Superior Man). It is in no way a red pill book. Secondly, this book mentioned is great and a must read for sure for any guy working on himself but I don't actually agree with everything the author says at times, I found myself disagreeing with a few chapters here and there, especially towards the middle/end. I think he is a bit narrow at times in defining masculinity and unnecessarily ropes in some esoteric stuff one might disagree is 100% masculine. He extrapolates in some odd directions at times as well. It's really hard to fit this topic into one book. Deida has a sort of dry approach at times in his writing. I don't think Masculinity is entirely unforgiving and relentless. It most certainly can be at times though.