How deeply can You awaken?

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Two things:

1. I doubt your current method is effective as you think or want to believe it is. I think you can use less direct yet more helpful pointers. For example, I don't think it helps anyone to state that you are God and that you are dreaming up reality. It's too direct and requires massive awakening to even entertain as a thought. No-self, on the other hand, is a lot easier to communicate and even illustrate, and still very few people get it, and hardly so. As well, if you think 5-MeO is the answer, then why all the pointers to begin with?

It's crazy effective for me. I can't speak to what is effective for you. Only you can sort that out.

But I also have a very strong sense of what is ineffective for most people. And that is meditation and Buddhism.

Quote

1. I'm kind of concerned that you might be stuck in the "awakening hell" as I call it. It's basically when your life becomes centered around awakening as if it is a must in life and otherwise something bad will happen. You stated many times that all endeavors are pointless in the end, but the way you're treating awakening doesn't communicate that to me. It's way too serious and attached, at least that's how it seems to me sometimes.

Tell that to the Buddha.

My life is not centered around awakening. My life is centered around deepening my Love. I experience such profound metaphysical Love that I cannot put it into words. And yet, my connection to Love has only just begun. I have discovered a Love that is so profound that it if I could only communicate it ever to one person, it would be worth a lifetime of work. And yet, there exists no one who I can share that Love with other than myself.

[RMQualtrough]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Again you are coming at this with hidden. Metaphysics.  There is no you..there is only Absolute Being.  That is all there ever was.

You are not.  Isness is issing.  Just make a shift in consciousness. . Meditation can trigger it but you thought that was gay.  Are you really serious about discovering Truth?   Try self inquiry meditation.  If you can realize there is no you directly the rest will open up for you.  

 

It's just mind stuff.  All content is mind stuff.  Reality is just a singular Infinite Mind.

What to do with all of this?  Don't believe me, do the spiritual practices and try to verify these claims.  

I'm not denying my own experiences or spending hours on semantics.

You all 100% know what I mean when saying you, I, our, others.

People either believe their PoV is the only one that exists, or they think there are many. Which one is being proposed? Because if it's only one PoV, you're all planks of wood and setting you alight causes no pain. Do you feel pain when I set you alight or not?

[RMQualtrough]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

Not really my business there. I’m simply commenting because a false accusation was made. If you or anyone is asking what Nahm is saying, this is pretty much word for word it, especially the balloon & air part. 

Indeed, it might sound crazy at first. 

There still hasn't been any straight answer regarding which form of Solipsism people here are subscribing to. It's pretty important to know if Leo thinks what he's experiencing is the ONLY experience, because then I know beyond question he's delusional and out of his mind, or conversely a wooden plank acting for me as in a dream.

When on the ToE podcast, he was much more careful about using You capitalized, etc. Has his position changed?

If people use words to retreat from the question I assume it's the wooden plank form. Otherwise it would be easy to clarify it's multiplicity with one beingness.

[tedens]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My life is centered around deepening my Love. I experience such profound metaphysical Love that I cannot put it into words. And yet, my connection to Love has only just begun. I have discovered a Love that is so profound that it if I could only communicate it ever to one person, it would be worth a lifetime of work. And yet, there exists no one who I can share that Love with other than myself.

So you have experienced a deeper love than that which is this "reality" as a dream (divinity)?

How it can be deepen?

Edited December 11, 2021 by tedens

[ZenSwift]

On 12/7/2021 at 8:05 PM, Leo Gura said:

Do a month of 5-MeO and you'll see how deep Infinity goes

Brb. 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

There still hasn't been any straight answer regarding which form of Solipsism people here are subscribing to. It's pretty important to know if Leo thinks what he's experiencing is the ONLY experience, because then I know beyond question he's delusional and out of his mind, or conversely a wooden plank acting for me as in a dream.

The error in your thinking there is the “then I will know”. 

No, ya won’t.
What you hear from others never magically turns into what you know. It remains and always will remain, what you heard.
What you know, you know, from direct experience and from direct experience only. 

There are as many “forms” of solipsism, as there are ways you could think about it. It’s a belief. ISM. 
The opposite, is meditation. Not believing those ‘many ways’. 

The relevant question for you imo is, why are you even continuing thinking about it?  I suppose it is because, you hold the belief that you could somehow magically know what is not within your own direct experience, isn’t it so? 

Leo could write a thousand books and make a thousand videos, and you would never, ever ever ever know, a damn thing. You are waiting for someone better at pointing to the truth for you? Definitely don’t hold your breathe. Point ya own self toward ya own self. 

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

When on the ToE podcast, he was much more careful about using You capitalized, etc. Has his position changed?

Instead, inspect what a podcast is, what a capitol is, what a position is - what you are! The hell difference does it make what positions change, sans your own ? 

(Imo) - Stop being a follower. I don’t mean “of Leo’s”. Listen to Leo if you like, don’t if you don’t. But stop being a follower in the bigger, biggest picture. If you want to know what’s true - let everyone else off the hook by dropping the false expectation you could be told the truth - and find out. Tangibly. Write anything which is not thinking, on your calendar. Anything which is direct experience. Healing modalities, an adventure, a retreat solo or otherwise, a trip, etc, anything other than more thinking. 

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

If people use words to retreat from the question I assume it's the wooden plank form. Otherwise it would be easy to clarify it's multiplicity with one beingness.

Maybe so, maybe not, assumption is a hand full of beans, not a heart & mind full of Truth. 

I love ya, and hope this is heard as such. But, that’s really your business. ?

 

@ZenSwift

? nice. 

(Because it was a joke. Keep the panties untwisted everyone)

[RMQualtrough]

@Nahm I had various strong DMT trips where certain things were revealed to me. For example the loss of categorization of things and understanding of everything as "existence".

There is 0% chance I would have any interest in this at all, but my own direct experience pointed me to Advaita Vedanta (the first thing I found when Googling for monist religions following the experience). I then read and found things which reinforced to me certain things which I viewed through the lens of the experience(s) I had.

My actual experience has always reflected Advaita Vedanta exactly, not so much Solipsism except in bad trips but even then it wasn't that type of Solipsism. Very odd that in that first trip, I hallucinated a Hindu goddess (some blue figure with a forehead dot) on the comedown... I have also hallucinated people in prayer with their legs crossed etc. Not sure why I saw those things.

My own experience has not been like Buddhist teachings so much, except Taoism. You can't actually refer to pure consciousness unless you call it I or me or you or consciousness. When I was pulled back very far away from objects, I knew myself to be nothing. All of me was removed from me. What is left, you would call it "I" because it IS what we fundamentally are. Not a "me" anymore.

In those states Solipsism did not really occur to me. I never came away from any trip thinking everyone else is a cardboard cutout acting for my amusement. I felt unity with everything like an embrace, a "WE" are everything is how it felt... It never felt to deny the essence of others, only their material appearance and spatial physical separation. It never denied the sense of others existing as alter egos of what I fundamentally am (me is also an alter ego). It could feel lonely as others were like myself talking to myself. But it never occurred that those alter egos were basically wooden planks.

If Leo thinks I am just a wooden plank I know for a fact he is wrong. Rupert Spira is able to verbalize exactly what I experienced very concisely. Leo is able to acknowledge nothingness which is also something I knew myself to be. I have not ever heard anyone else discuss nothingness. Just no-thing, which is not like what I experienced when I felt to be made of nothingness.

Edited December 11, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Nahm]

@RMQualtrough

But then it was heard, ‘wooden planks’… ? 

And the order of the day is finding out if what you heard is truth, from the sayer of ‘wooden planks’ ? 
(I don’t know what that reference is, ‘wooden planks’ is new to me)

I’m not sure if that’s what you’re experiencing, or if that’s the point made or not. 

It’s unclear from including all the memories, states, etc. Irrelevant to the topic at hand, no?

[RMQualtrough]

@Nahm By wooden planks, I'm basically saying the form of Solipsism which would deny experience other than, for example right now, seeing of this screen I type on. In the type of Solipsism I refer to, the seeing of your screen as you read this simply isn't happening, and when you say it is, you are just like a cardboard cutout pretending you're seeing.

No experience I ever had gave me a sense of negating the idea that you would be seeing your screen as I see mine. It was more like everything that is, is just one beingness. And there could easily be many viewpoints because why not? What was denied was physical separation and form as being ultimately real. E.g. if I saw you as a human, that human form is not really there. But there was no sense of a negation of there being seeing happening from the perspective of that form. Like a shared dream scenario, that didn't ever seem negated by any experience.

[Nahm]

@RMQualtrough

Hopefully you don’t fault me for being frank… what’s the point?  I understand what you’re saying, but am at a loss as to the point of it. 

[Shin]

3 hours ago, tedens said:

So you have experienced a deeper love than that which is this "reality" as a dream (divinity)?

How it can be deepen?

Cause it's infinite, you can go infinitely deep  

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@RMQualtrough

Hopefully you don’t fault me for being frank… what’s the point?  I understand what you’re saying, but am at a loss as to the point of it. 

What do you mean? There's ultimately no point to anything ofc but you still do find people discussing it. Humans are naturally curious about reality. A teaching of the cardboard cutout type Solipsism, would simply be wrong unless I'm the only non-cutout... Which is possible... But I don't know why it would have to be.

Actually there's much to say on the matter. Even though it is possible my mind is all there is, it does not have the ability to manipulate reality completely when I'd expect it would as per a lucid dream... An "unconscious" level of imagination, to me, is already proving some multiplicity. Acknowledging a capital "You" is to me already multiplicity.

This is where I think of trees. Some say you are the whole tree, you mean "You" the capital. Or Mind with the capital. That is very different from little you or mind uncapitalized being the entire tree. The limited is an aspect of the unlimited, not vice versa. What in this would negate the possibility of varying perspectives? It is two views of nonduality. I never got the impression that the limited view, for example this sight of my screen, must be all there is. That was never an impression I got.

[Nahm]

45 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

What do you mean? There's ultimately no point to anything ofc but you still do find people discussing it. Humans are naturally curious about reality.

I meant the point of what you said, not the ultimate point of reality. 

Quote

A teaching of the cardboard cutout type Solipsism, would simply be wrong unless I'm the only non-cutout... Which is possible... But I don't know why it would have to be.

What makes it ‘wrong’?

And so what if it is incorrect, inaccurate, ‘wrong’, etc?  Simply put, what the heck difference does it make? 

Quote

Actually there's much to say on the matter. Even though it is possible my mind is all there is, it does not have the ability to manipulate reality completely when I'd expect it would as per a lucid dream... An "unconscious" level of imagination, to me, is already proving some multiplicity. Acknowledging a capital "You" is to me already multiplicity.

Who ‘has a mind’ (my mind), and who’s manipulative / manipulating?  And how & why is manipulation being accredited to a my mind, vs the ordinary muggle style, I’m manipulative / manipulating? 

Who is the arbitrator of;
-what is and is not a dream or a lucid dream
-conscious & unconscious
- levels of imagination
- you’s with small y’s & you’s with big Y’s? 

Quote

This is where I think of trees. Some say you are the whole tree, you mean "You" the capital. Or Mind with the capital. That is very different from little you or mind uncapitalized being the entire tree. The limited is an aspect of the unlimited, not vice versa. What in this would negate the possibility of varying perspectives? It is two views of nonduality. I never got the impression that the limited view, for example this sight of my screen, must be all there is. That was never an impression I got.

I might be missing something, a point, but doesn’t this kind of circle back to this…

5 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

There still hasn't been any straight answer regarding which form of Solipsism people here are subscribing to. It's pretty important to know if Leo thinks what he's experiencing is the ONLY experience, because then I know beyond question he's delusional and out of his mind, or conversely a wooden plank acting for me as in a dream.

When on the ToE podcast, he was much more careful about using You capitalized, etc. Has his position changed?

If people use words to retreat from the question I assume it's the wooden plank form. Otherwise it would be easy to clarify it's multiplicity with one beingness.

Why is it important ‘to you’ what Leo or anyone else says? 

Wooden planks, robots, NPC’s, zombies, unconscious meat bags, yada yada…. What is the relevance? 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

No experience I ever had gave me a sense of negating the idea that you would be seeing your screen as I see mine. It was more like everything that is, is just one beingness

I think that you and I are one, we are the same, but I am apparently seeing one screen, and you, I mean, i, are seeing another (apparent). in the end none of us are seeing a screen, but apparently there are infinite screens. maybe i'm wrong. when the dualities have collapsed, everything has been clear, but after a few seconds, this matter becomes impossible to understand

[Mosess]

No one can ever know if "solipsism" is true or not :,) 

Accept that

What you guys are saying is completely impossible.

The absolute ONLY way you can verify if it is true or not, is by somehow becoming simultaneously aware of a dream within this dream, which is absolutely and completely not only mind fucking, but in-human-sanity.

What i mean is that when you sleep, you dream up a character with a completely different storyline of events just like this current one you are living, and wake up from it at EXACTLY the same time you wake up from this one.

You wake up from 2 completely different storylines/perspectives simultaneously, which entirely shatters even the concept of "solipsism" 

which is all talk for god, or what this is

what the is is

Edited December 11, 2021 by Mosess

[Mosess]

On 2021-12-10 at 5:15 AM, Leo Gura said:

The right combination of neurotransmitters, brain health, and neuronal interconnectedness.

Perhaps also the right kind of brainwave patterns -- which is what meditation manipulates most directly.

Of course all these things are imaginary. But just because they are imaginary does not mean you can ignore them, just like you cannot ignore a brick wall or a bullet to the head.

@Leo Gura

A curiosity for combining things does play a very big part in figuring shit out

For non duality, curiosity must be one of assembling the inner restings of consciousness. When consciousness is resting, the brain must be interested in the resting, which slowly lights up parts of the brain that were not "lit". This is "meditation" done correctly.

On the other hand, psychedelics quickly lights up those parts of the brain that were not, in a relatively short period of time. This would make it seem a better option for finding the inner restings of consciousness, but we must consider a really strong point in determining which one alternative is more beneficial.

Sustainability. 

Because the brain took full time to find the inner restings of consciousness in proper meditation, it becomes more sustainable long term wise as to sustain the findings in comparison to taking a psychedelic, where it happens almost instantly. By sustaining the findings, what is meant is sustaining the parts of the brain that have lit up due to the assembling the resting state of consciousness, or "finding inconsistencies in consciousness"

Finding inconsistencies in things, requires immense pattern recognition abilities over relatively long periods of time in meditation, which is why psychedelics are useful in shortening the time in recognizing inconsistencies in things, but less sustainable than meditation, which requires more time in finding inconsistencies in things.

If there is a way where we can find the type/s of brain that gets quickly adjusted to figuring out inconsistencies in consciousness while maintaining the sustainability required for maintaining those findings, then psychedelics would be perfect. My guess would be a type of individual which is extremely adaptable to new situations.

 For that to happen, we need to experiment and for our misfortune that we are in the dark ages, there are extremely few experiments being conducted on matters of this

 The type of brain which is considered to have mental diseases like "ADHD", would be perfect for conducting such a research. Since that type of brain is extremely intelligent in adapting and surviving in new environments, it is (relatively) faster than other types of brains in combining things together and figuring shit out for itself. Which means that it would quickly assemble the inconsistencies in consciousness that psychedelics provide and become more sustainable long term wise. For this type of brain, it would make more sense to give it psychedelics since it would be able to sustain the understandings in inconsistencies in consciousness, rather than letting it sit in meditation for a long ass period of time, which in this case would be a waste of time.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Mosess

[RMQualtrough]

@Nahm Because it would be incorrect lol. Unless I'm the only non-cutout, in which case it's correct. But I don't see that it would be necessary at all.

Exactly as you say, who is deciding things I'm not consciously deciding. Who is crafting the landscapes around me (and the landscapes in dreams which occur without my conscious manipulation). No matter the answer, even "nobody", to me that is a clear display of multiplicity. Then also, if everyone else is lying about having experience, WHAT is deciding that they lie if I am not consciously doing so? Why would they not just admit "lol yeah we're zombies bro"?

@Breakingthewall I think you're right. I don't think there's some secret extra level.

Same I, different eyes... To me this is not contradictory. This entire identity is just one limited expression, I don't see that there could not be many of them at once.

[Nahm]

11 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Because it would be incorrect lol. Unless I'm the only non-cutout, in which case it's correct. But I don't see that it would be necessary at all.

See what I’m sayin though? It does not matter at all, because you’d only know via direct experience. That’s what was meant by the ‘error’ in thinking. 

11 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Exactly as you say, who is deciding things I'm not consciously deciding. Who is crafting the landscapes around me (and the landscapes in dreams which occur without my conscious manipulation). No matter the answer, even "nobody", to me that is a clear display of multiplicity. Then also, if everyone else is lying about having experience, WHAT is deciding that they lie if I am not consciously doing so? Why would they not just admit "lol yeah we're zombies bro"?

You still wouldn’t know. That’s all I’m sayin. Here….

I am a philosophical zombie. 

I am ‘the real one’.  

I am blah blah blabber blabber yada yada the enlightened one

Makes no difference. 

[softlyblossoming]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But I also have a very strong sense of what is ineffective for most people. And that is meditation and Buddhism.

I was planning on doing precisely that – Buddhist meditation – on the psychedelics. What should I do instead?

 

[Consilience]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But I also have a very strong sense of what is ineffective for most people. And that is meditation and Buddhism.

Your senses are biased. It depends on what you mean by effective. If living the good life is one’s aim, meditation and even some Buddhism are extremely powerful technologies. If the aim is God, in isolation these are probably not enough. The thing is, “most people” are looking to live the good life. Therefore, meditation and Buddhism are wildly effective. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Consilience