How deeply can You awaken?

[OneHandClap]

Just now, Javfly33 said:

@Nahm how do you know that? How you know truth is not a thought?

Truth is what remains when all thoughts about it cease

[Inliytened1]

20 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

I agree with this logic and your presentation of it, but I think Leo often goes a tad too far in trying to translate this into relative terms. Especially when he says things such as "Your Will creates reality." In your formulation, there is no room for will. Because will implies a self, a doer, an agent. Being isn't under anybody's control, and seeing as it transcends the duality of self/other, it makes no sense to speak about the idea of God "creating" based on Will. Whose will? Where did the desires arise from? 

Tl;dr I agree with you, but Leo is hung up on the agency/doer side of things IMO. 

yeah but at the same time i think it is hard to talk about these topics because language is inheritently dualistic, so saying Your WIll can be immediately deemed to be egoic, selfish will, but i dont think that's what he means here.  He means Being or Infinite WIll, which is really identical to Being.  Being/Will/Infinity its all the same really.  But it's not the selfish egoic will we often think about.  Just like "omnisicience" can be deemed to be some selfish power trip but notice that all might be a finite bias of the egoic mind.   It's very tricky stuff.  He has also stated in the past that God's relinquished its Will entirely because it is Absolute Infinity,which i agree with from my own path.  And in a pure Infinite state, God does not see any distinctions or any differences between anything.  It must allow all things to exist, and if it disallowed "one pariticular" thing, making a distinction, then it would not be Absolute Love.  Thus, in a sense, God forfeits its WIll.  That is what Infinite WIll is, actually.

[OneHandClap]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

yeah but at the same time i think it is hard to talk about these topics because language is inheritently dualistic, so saying Your WIll can be immediately deemed to be egoic, selfish will, but i dont think that's what he means here.  He means Being or Infinite WIll, which is really identical to Being.  Being/Will/Infinity its all the same really.  But it's not the selfish egoic will we often think about.  Just like "omnisicience" can be deemed to be some selfish power trip but notice that all might be a finite bias of the egoic mind.   It's very tricky stuff.  He has also stated in the past that God's relinquished its Will entirely because it is Absolute Infinity, and in a pure Infinite state, God does not see any distinctions or any differences between anything.  It must allow all things to exist, and if it disallowed "one pariticular" thing, making a distinction, then it would not be Absolute Love.  Thus, in a sense, God forfeits its WIll.

Yes, I suppose I can understand that. I've always come at it from a "via negativa" standpoint. Complete dismantling of any concepts (including ownership, words like God, etc). Anything that is rooted in concepts or language must ultimately be abandoned to exist as "it." Tricky, tricky. No wonder we've spent thousands of years prattling on trying to describe it. The never-ending game. 

But the more I say, the further I wander... Never has a true word been spoken about the Truth

[Shin]

2 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Nahm how do you know that? How you know truth is not a thought?

Cause it's the truth

That being said it can be tricky cause you could only see one side of it and totally miss the other (like the neo advaita dudes and even Buddhists).

[ADD]

1 minute ago, Shin said:

Cause it's the truth

That being said it can be tricky cause you could only see one side of it and totally miss the other (like the neo advaita dudes and even Buddhists).

Can you elaborate, about the two sides?

[Nahm]

6 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Nahm how do you know that? How you know truth is not a thought?

 

5 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Truth is what remains when all thoughts about it cease

? 

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

Cause it's the truth

That being said it can be tricky cause you could only see one side of it and totally miss the other (like the neo advaita dudes and even Buddhists).

? 

[wildflower]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Salvijus I understand your position. Frame it however serves you.

Do you intend to respond to my post, I'm not being facetious or confrontational, I'm genuinely interested to hear your opinion

[Javfly33]

13 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Truth is what remains when all thoughts about it cease

Well i got ya, you expect that affirmation to be truth! ?

If truth is not a Word, even saying "truth is not a Word" would be false.

[Shin]

17 minutes ago, ADD said:

Can you elaborate, about the two sides?

Mainly realizing that you're nothing in particular, or realizing that you're everything.

But there are degrees like you can realize that you're everything but you don't realize you're God or infinite love.
Or you can realize that there is no self, but not realizing the above and/or that everything is a giant infinite mind.

There is like an infinite combinations of all those and more (that you can't even put into words), and some teachers have only a very specific awakening and take it for the ultimate truth.

 

This'll explain it way better than this post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgtPGEBGUWw

Edited December 9, 2021 by Shin

[Inliytened1]

15 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

 

But the more I say, the further I wander... Never has a true word been spoken about the Truth

Ain that the Truth

 

[OneHandClap]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Ain that the Truth

 

It is... and totally isn't

[Nahm]

10 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Well i got ya, you expect that affirmation to be truth! ?

If truth is not a Word, even saying "truth is not a Word" would be false.

Thoughts ⬆️ 

24 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Truth is what remains when all thoughts about it cease

? 

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, wildflower said:

~Why does your experience not effect me if we are all the same figment of imagination and not one?

I try to understand this. I have had a total collapse of all dualities several times, sober as well. suddenly it has become obvious that there are no bubbles, as nothing is happening. There is only one, and all the others are exactly me, and they are perceiving exactly the same thing, which is nothing, only that by a magic trick, it seems different and it seems something. it's completely obvious at the time, but when you start to analyze it ... it's impossible to understand. Why am I now looking at a wall and someone else is looking at something else? is that the experiences happen consecutively? no. it is in this moment, and it is not happening. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[wildflower]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I try to understand this. I have had a total collapse of all dualities several times, sober as well. suddenly it has become obvious that there are no bubbles, as nothing is happening. There is only one, and all the others are exactly me, and they are perceiving exactly the same thing, which is nothing, only that by a magic trick, it seems different and it seems something. it's completely obvious at the time, but when you start to analyze it ... it's impossible to understand. Why am I now looking at a wall and someone else is looking at something else? is that the experiences happen consecutively? no. it is in this moment, and it is not happening. 

There can be a conscious experience such that there is just suchness, both subject and object are perceived directly the same, so the other person you would usually think is someone speaking to you, you can merge and collapse into them, such that there is only someone speaking, no them and me, but this is just an experience or perceptual shift.

Leo makes tons of implicit ontological and metaphysical claims: there is only a single perception that exists, that is his, and we all only exist when we read our comments, and when he doesn't we arent even alive

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, wildflower said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, wildflower said:

Leo makes tons of implicit ontological and metaphysical claims: there is only a single perception that exists, that is his, and we all only exist when we read our comments, and when he doesn't we arent even alive

I think he means that only he exists and he is imagining you, that you are the only one that exists and you are imagining him. because you are him and he is you, and both, I mean, one, is being infinitely in no time, and all this we are saying is absolutely nothing, a trick of infinity that seems that "he" understands, but "I" really no

[Javfly33]

3 hours ago, Shin said:

Cause it's the truth

That being said it can be tricky cause you could only see one side of it and totally miss the other (like the neo advaita dudes and even Buddhists).

@Shin I've had states of no-thoughts. Yet i Dont share the same "certainty" of you.

How do you explain that?

@OneHandClap

[Shin]

7 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Shin I've had states of no-thoughts. Yet i Dont share the same "certainty" of you.

How do you explain that?

@OneHandClap

Certainty of what ?

[ADD]

3 hours ago, Shin said:

Mainly realizing that you're nothing in particular, or realizing that you're everything.

But there are degrees like you can realize that you're everything but you don't realize you're God or infinite love.
Or you can realize that there is no self, but not realizing the above and/or that everything is a giant infinite mind.

There is like an infinite combinations of all those and more (that you can't even put into words), and some teachers have only a very specific awakening and take it for the ultimate truth.

 

This'll explain it way better than this post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgtPGEBGUWw

I see. Yes of course the understanding deepens along the way. The awakening is just the beginning. Once you start embodying this that's where the true joy starts to emerge.

I see how this way the psychedelics can be quite frustrating for some. As you can get a taste of a deeper understanding, but once you are not having the chemical effect any longer it falls off. You had a glimpse but you lost it. You need a new trip to access it but if your mindset is wrong even then you can't get it. If you progress on this path without the help of substances you can always go back to the same understanding you already had by just simply choosing so. The longer you go the more natural this becomes and it starts to be your natural way to live your life by resting as the awareness instead of pointing the focus to the experience.

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, OneHandClap said:

Even setting aside the logical flaws that others have pointed out in the thread, there's just something comical about the notion that physical reality is under the thumb of this God that's been imagined.

What's comical is thinking that God doesn't have Absolute Will.

Quote

Peter Ralston tried to set this straight when he said "There is no will in the Absolute," but here is the exact reversal of that statement... Leo, with all due love, you are trying to set up a kingdom of the super-Ego (here termed God) by claiming that there is a sense of control and will. There is no will. There is no control. And until you can release this last vestige of egoic consciousness, you are bound to keep living in your own dream of solipsistic power. 

Well, he's wrong about that of course. God is Infinite Will.

Reality is your Will, silly.

This Will I am talking about has nothing to do with ego. And since God's Will is Absolute, it cannot be changed. God's Will is Love. You cannot ever change that, nor would you ever want to. You might then say that if it's Absolute, it isn't really Will. Except it is absolutely Will.

Quote

Put shortly, there's a lot of mental games being played here. For somebody who is a self-proclaimed successor to the Buddha, Christ, and all other imaginary humans, there seems to be a lot of attachment to the story of "look at how profound my teachings are... I have gone further than anyone ever!"

No games or story at all. I'm simply telling you what you are.

Quote

In other words, setting up an impossible challenge that can never be disproven or proven. Sounds a lot like Catholicism. 

It's not impossible at all. You can realize that reality is your will by taking some 5-MeO.

I gave you a precise scientific method for validation of my claims. You are just too lazy and scared to do it.

Your desire to change God's Will with your egoic will -- that's the ego game you are playing here.

In your egotism you have denied God omnipotence -- which is the height of absurdity.

- - - - -

Reality is Your Will.

When your realize this, you will become God-realized, and until such time you are not truly Awake.

You don't comprehend the immensity your own power.

[SelfHelpGuy]

@Leo Gura Do you actually recommend this? (Month of 5meo)

Also, thoughts on this:

Since we literally rely on "external" things such as water, food, shelter etc - isn't not so much of a leap to suggest that we also rely on "external" factors such as psychedelics for our spiritual development?  What if, its actually impossible to get to where could get to without psychedelics?

Like yes maybe some people can get far without them, but psychedelics get you there quicker AND further than any human can without.

It seems to work with the external environment in all areas of life  (and not just our ego mind-body saying i'll do it all alone) is a TRUE coming one with all. What if we actually NEED psychedelics, like a frickin' Abraham Maslow hierarchy factor. 

I feel this to be true for me at least, thoughts?

Edited December 10, 2021 by SelfHelpGuy