How to Forgive a Nation/ a People?

[Fleetinglife]

I've yet to watch Leo's episode How to Forgive Anyone to the full, but until I do does Leo there talk about how to forgive a nation, people who engage in denialism of genocide, murder, past sadism, ethnic cleansing, and war crimes against other people or the viewer's relatives, family or ancestors or at least its active revisionism, minimization, and justification or obfuscation? Also to rid the viewer of his active felt hatred towards those sort of people and a desire to enact some sort of revenge, getting back at or a desire for justice to befall upon them and for the victimized nation, people, and group you belong to be adequately compensated for this and being redeemed by the redemption of the oppressor, guilty people or group?

Thanks to anyone who can give me advice for me on how to effectively combat these feelings and thoughts and overcome them a part of watching that episode in whole and taking notes on it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[Rilles]

See the people as one collective, see the collective as a person. Forgive that person by going through the 5 points. 

[Fleetinglife]

15 minutes ago, Rilles said:

See the people as one collective, see the collective as a person. Forgive that person by going through the 5 points. 

Mhmmm thanks for the advice on the visualization technique. It makes sense since whenever you interact with said people you interact through a person, as it was in my experience, and you project your assumption of their collective shared national beliefs and feelings and their ancestors or family's deeds as being harbored by that person, even if you don't know that or anything about them and you only go on your assumption based on your interpretation of the meanings behind their statements as a window to their thoughts and feelings towards you that you yourself feel or construct in your head. And it is also worth knowing as a rule of thumb of history that no society or people becomes the oppressor or enacts horrific crimes and dehumanization upon another people for the sake of it but almost always as a result that they collectively felt that they were the first ones victimized and oppressed first and that they have to lash out against or enact revenge themselves or because of selfish careerist and opportunist motives under a dictatorial, exclusionary, authoritarian or oppressive regime.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[gettoefl]

you can't forgive a person until you have stripped them of the ability to harm again

otherwise you are perpetuating their continued devilry

don't inflict trauma on others by forgiving wrongly and giving abusers the green light to go out and abuse

[Rilles]

6 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

you can't forgive a person until you have stripped them of the ability to harm again

otherwise you are perpetuating their continued devilry

don't inflict trauma on others by forgiving wrongly and giving abusers the green light to go out and abuse

Thats a misinterpration. The point of the exercise was to forgive them for something they did to you in the past. What they do in the future is none of your business. If you have been abused you should leave whoever abused you and then forgive them, in that way they cant hurt you anymore. Its all about your personal grudge, has nothing to them with them really.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Rilles

[Fleetinglife]

4 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

you have stripped them of the ability to harm again

Well, they stripped it themselves since they ethnically cleansed almost all of the people they could harm from the region inhabited and populated historically and in the past by those people and made the country in majority ethnically pure or monolithic and only continue, some of their nationalist people, to discriminate here and there that remaining national minority (which the state degraded them to that status as before those people were considered one of the two constituent people in the country who were equal in political and legal rights) that has some parliamentary representation within the country. So they don't have the legal ability currently to harm again since those people are no longer within their borders and rights of national minorities are legally protected by the Constitution, and I think there is no longer an ideological mood to harm them again in the same way they did before with the coming of new generations.

 

15 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

don't inflict trauma on others by forgiving wrongly and giving abusers the green light to go out and abuse

You forgive them for their ignorance, pettiness, and smallness of mind and if they still believe what they do and if they can no longer harm you and your family or relatives.

[gettoefl]

10 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Thats a misinterpration. The point of the exercise was to forgive them for something they did to you in the past. What they do in the future is none of your business. If you have been abused you should leave whoever abused you and then forgive them, in that way they cant hurt you anymore. Its all about your personal grudge, has nothing to them with them really.

forgive = remove all consequences of perpetration

rather than mental peace making exercise in your own head

[gettoefl]

3 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

 

You forgive them for their ignorance, pettiness, and smallness of mind and if they still believe what they do and if they can no longer harm you and your family or relatives.

ask them what are their intention going forward and see what their attitude conveys

[Rilles]

18 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

ask them what are their intention going forward and see what their attitude conveys

Forgiveness is about you. Not them. Youre never going to change them. Thats WHY you should forgive them, deep ignorance can only be forgiven, not changed. 

"Forgive them for they know not what they do"

[mandyjw]

The Empty Boat by Chuang Tzu

He who rules men lives in confusion;
He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow.
Yao therefore desired
Neither to influence others
Nor to be influenced by them.
The way to get clear of confusion
And free of sorrow
Is to live with Tao
In the land of the great Void.

If a man is crossing a river
And an empty boat collides with his own skiff,
Even though he be a bad-tempered man
He will not become very angry.
But if he sees a man in the boat,
He will shout at him to steer clear.
If the shout is not heard, he will shout again,
And yet again, and begin cursing.
And all because there is somebody in the boat.
Yet if the boat were empty.
He would not be shouting, and not angry.

If you can empty your own boat
Crossing the river of the world,
No one will oppose you,
No one will seek to harm you.

The straight tree is the first to be cut down,
The spring of clear water is the first to be drained dry.
If you wish to improve your wisdom
And shame the ignorant,
To cultivate your character
And outshine others;
A light will shine around you
As if you had swallowed the sun and the moon:
You will not avoid calamity.

A wise man has said:
“He who is content with himself
Has done a worthless work.
Achievement is the beginning of failure.
Fame is beginning of disgrace.”

Who can free himself from achievement
And from fame, descend and be lost
Amid the masses of men?
He will flow like Tao, unseen,
He will go about like Life itself
With no name and no home.
Simple is he, without distinction.
To all appearances he is a fool.
His steps leave no trace. He has no power.
He achieves nothing, has no reputation.
Since he judges no one
No one judges him.
Such is the perfect man:
His boat is empty.

[gettoefl]

Just now, Rilles said:

Forgiveness is about you. Not them. Youre never going to change them. Thats WHY you should forgive them, deep ignorance can only be forgiven, not changed. 

"Forgive them for they know not what they do"

how can you be so self serving, consider other innocent victims, the world is not just about you, don't you dare release rapists to the world at large

this will be your responsibility and your legacy

forgiveness unleashes monsters

and it will be on you

[Rilles]

1 minute ago, gettoefl said:

how can you be so self serving, consider other innocent victims, the world is not just about you, don't you dare release rapists to the world at large

this will be your responsibility and your legacy

forgiveness unleashes monsters

and it will be on you

I forgive you for being willfully dense. 

[gettoefl]

2 minutes ago, Rilles said:

I forgive you for being willfully dense. 

and i forgive your liberal agenda, more or less everyone is a liberal in the first half of life

go in peace to love and serve the lord

[Rilles]

1 minute ago, gettoefl said:

and i forgive your liberal agenda, more or less everyone is a liberal in the first half of life

go in peace to love and serve the lord

Forgiveness all abound! Have this love! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[Fleetinglife]

53 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The Empty Boat by Chuang Tzu

He who rules men lives in confusion;
He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow.
Yao therefore desired
Neither to influence others
Nor to be influenced by them.
The way to get clear of confusion
And free of sorrow
Is to live with Tao
In the land of the great Void.

If a man is crossing a river
And an empty boat collides with his own skiff,
Even though he be a bad-tempered man
He will not become very angry.
But if he sees a man in the boat,
He will shout at him to steer clear.
If the shout is not heard, he will shout again,
And yet again, and begin cursing.
And all because there is somebody in the boat.
Yet if the boat were empty.
He would not be shouting, and not angry.

If you can empty your own boat
Crossing the river of the world,
No one will oppose you,
No one will seek to harm you.

The straight tree is the first to be cut down,
The spring of clear water is the first to be drained dry.
If you wish to improve your wisdom
And shame the ignorant,
To cultivate your character
And outshine others;
A light will shine around you
As if you had swallowed the sun and the moon:
You will not avoid calamity.

A wise man has said:
“He who is content with himself
Has done a worthless work.
Achievement is the beginning of failure.
Fame is beginning of disgrace.”

Who can free himself from achievement
And from fame, descend and be lost
Amid the masses of men?
He will flow like Tao, unseen,
He will go about like Life itself
With no name and no home.
Simple is he, without distinction.
To all appearances he is a fool.
His steps leave no trace. He has no power.
He achieves nothing, has no reputation.
Since he judges no one
No one judges him.
Such is the perfect man:
His boat is empty.

Beautiful and insightful poem for the topic of how to forgive and have a meta understanding and approach to forgiveness by Chuang Tzu. Thank you for sharing it here it is very relevant for people to learn how to forgive in their own minds!

[Yog]

Gratitude is prerequisite for forgiveness, try practicing general gratitude mate.

Also shadow work would be no brainier. If you have a grudge against a group, there is most definitely a solid shadow there.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Yog

[Yarco]

Most people in a country committing war crimes aren't actively contributing. They're just going along to get along, trying to survive. They are victims too.

In most of these places, it's a matter of life and death. Would you rather be right, or would you rather be alive?

Edited December 6, 2021 by Yarco

[ZenRising]

21 hours ago, Rilles said:

Forgiveness is about you. Not them.

 

Bingo. How do I benefit by carrying around anger and resentment? I don't... it just poisons me.

[Fleetinglife]

Is watching the two Actualized.org clips On Forgiveness enough for practicing and exercising forgiveness onto others for the things that also exist in me as a human or is the exercise contained in the full episode?

[Fleetinglife]

On 12/6/2021 at 8:00 PM, Yog said:

Also shadow work would be no brainier. If you have a grudge against a group, there is most definitely a solid shadow there.

Is there an Actualized.org clip-on Shadow Work? I've been mostly watching Actualized.org clips and taking notes on them and didn't separate and invest the time to watch a full hour or two hour-long episodes since I see this as a more efficient way of note-taking.