Zizek describes Zen Devilry

[Carl-Richard]

2:29:19 - 2:32:23 Heinrich Himmler and Bhagavad Gita. Zen and Japanese imperialism.

 

JP and Zizek agree that happiness is not an inherent good, only if it comes as a byproduct of meaning, and that the pathway to meaning is found through feeling, by searching within. But what about the corruption of meaning? Here is an excerpt about the latter, namely Zen Devilry. The lesson is that survival, self-bias and self-deception are very sticky.

[Tim R]

He says: "[...] I'm saying how even the most enlightened - this spiritual experience can serve a terrible cause."

What he should've said is: "how the corruption of the idea* of enlightenment can serve a terrible cause". 

*idea: by that I don't mean that enlightenment is an idea, but that it certainly would've been to those who used it as an excuse to murder people.

 

Unless my understanding of Zen Devilry is too naive. It probably is, now that I'm thinking about it. Only because you've had (a shallow) Satori that doesn't mean that you won't abuse Satori for even horrible things. Those who would use non-doership as an justification are obviously still quite selfish.

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The lesson is that survival, self-bias and self-deception are very sticky.

Yup. The spiritual ego comes to mind. We will pervert anything in the most subtle and ingenious, intransparent ways to make it serve our crude and selfish desires. Ahh the devil is too clever. 

Especially in the form of a post-Satori ego-backlash. Which will be sneaky as f*ck. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

He says: "[...] I'm saying how even the most enlightened - this spiritual experience can serve a terrible cause."

What he should've said is: "how the corruption of the idea* of enlightenment can serve a terrible cause". 

*idea: by that I don't mean that enlightenment is an idea, but that it certainly would've been to those who used it as an excuse to murder people.

"It's not me stabbing you – it's all just appearances" is firstly a thought, and "thus I'll stab you" is a justification. The corruption is taking a description (not it) and making a normative claim (not it). It's actually antithetical to non-duality, which is why it's a corruption, but the mind is very sneaky, so it will easily overlook those two steps, either out of ignorance or competing survival drives (both are really the same thing).

 

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

Unless my understanding of Zen Devilry is too naive. It probably is, now that I'm thinking about it. Only because you've had (a shallow) Satori that doesn't mean that you won't abuse Satori for even horrible things. Those who would use non-doership as an justification are obviously still quite selfish.

We often underestimate the power of culture on behavior, especially when it comes to enlightenment (call it mystical determinism or waking up > growing up bias). Enlightened people (with a body) still have to make survival decisions, and such decisions are culturally informed. It's therefore not impossible that a monk in a nationalistic environment would make such a suggestion (which is indeed what happened historically).

[Preety_India]

Survival is extremely important although it is selfish. This selfishness is coded in our DNA. 

And that's why it's sticky? 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

The highest happiness is beyond any meaning, it takes place at the level of being.

In a sense, meaning is what creates unhappiness. Notice that you cannot be unhappy without meaning.

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The highest happiness is beyond any meaning, it takes place at the level of being.

In a sense, meaning is what creates unhappiness. Notice that you cannot be unhappy without meaning.

The way I see it is that the pathway to being is through meaning, but it requires a leap of faith, which can only come from a deep intuition or feeling, namely a certain sensitivity to or sophistication of meaning. Meaning is a hybrid or an intermediary step between disembodied mind (pure rationality) and embodied being (trans-rationality). JP mentions listening to your conscience as a guide for meaning, and if you think about it, the process of parsing out your conscience from mental noise requires a certain level of embodiment or refinement of awareness and feeling. Your conscience is being reeling you in from the sea of mind.

[Leo Gura]

You could simplify all that to just: Follow your highest love.

Love leads to God. The highest love is beyond meaning.

The problem is that the ego's finite and selfish conceptions of meaning will limit your ability to go beyond meaning. Which is the exact trap that JP has fallen into. Meaning has gotten him this far. But he cannot go further. He clings to meaning like a rat clinging to a plank of wood in the middle of the ocean.

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He clings to meaning like a rat clinging to a plank of wood in the middle of the ocean.

He has intuited being, but has yet to take the plunge and actually swim in it

[Leo Gura]

Maps Of Meaning -- his life's work, a house of cards.

God help him.

[Tim R]

Wanna see something cool? 

Oh no! The subjective and the objective touch! It's too frightening to truly believe, but he knows it. 

[Leo Gura]

"The conceptualization of God"

There's the devil.

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"The conceptualization of God"

There's the devil.

As Zizek would say: the reversal – it's so funny

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

As Zizek would say: the reversal – it's so funny

The irony is that Peterson understands God better than Zizek.

Talk about reversal

Zizek has somehow managed to double-reverse himself into less than Nothing

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Zizek has somehow managed to double-reverse himself into less than Nothing

Wut!? ?

[Tim R]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Zizek has somehow managed to double-reverse himself into less than Nothing

Wut!? ?

Leo is too meta for us mere mortals??

[Leo Gura]

Sorry, I'm turning into Nahm

[Nahm]

In your dreams. 

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, Tim R said:

Oh no! The subjective and the objective touch! 

He touched me! Ohhh.... HE TOUCHED ME. 

 

 

[PurpleTree]

yea remember that when i watched the debate

that was probably my favourite part of it

[Happy Lizard]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Maps Of Meaning -- his life's work, a house of cards.

God help him.

I think most regard him as a yellow vmeme because he somehow tapped into the meaning making idea of yellow somehow. Though I think this is a misunderstanding.

I remember in the nihilism episode you explained how the meaning you make is personal and you discover it is you go with trial and error. In other words everyone has there own way of finding meaning thats suits them personally. I think this distinction is important to stress out as it gets lost in context when you try to oscillate between “yes, reality has meaning!” “ no, reality has no meaning, and you should go beyond it!”.

 

I really feel for JP. Though if he continues this way his life work might turn into a toxic life purpose, and can start indoctrinating younger people who have no idea and  just follow him because of his reputation.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Happy Lizard