Is the collapse of US democracy a foregone conclusion by this point?

[DocWatts]

...at least in the short term (over the next decade or two), that is.

Of course on a longer time scale whatever pseudo government emerges from a potential right wing coup is likely to be even more unstable than the rickety democracy that exists right now, but obviously we don't want it to come to that.

Other than stalling for time, I've yet to see realistic ways that this democratic backslide can be addressed using the tools we have at our disposal.

None of the underlying systemic reasons behind Trump and right wing radicalization have even begun to be addressed. No realistic solutions to widespread feelings of collapsing social solidarity and alienation during the paradigm shift we're living through seem to be on the table as something that can be implemented in a short enough time span.

Democratic institutions have proven to be incapable of inoculating themselves from takeover from those who don't abide by democratic norms; for structural reasons a radicalized minority party has effective veto power over reforms which would safeguard democracy and prevent it from collapsing.

What are actual pragmatic steps that can be taken at this point which take in to account the limitations imposed by the actual conditions that exist right now?

Edited December 3, 2021 by DocWatts

[2_spirit]

At this point I no longer see the United States being on the forefront of social progress. Biden has done a few decent things here and there but the current democratic party is only as good as it's most conservitive members. Trump will likely run again in 2024 and win according to current polls. 

 

[Space Lizard]

Is the right wing responsible for the decay and crime we're seeing in American cities that have been run by liberals for decades? Is the right wing driving people out of liberal regions to more conservative locales like Florida, Arizona or Idaho? Blaming everything on the right wing seems to be a favorite tactic of people who don't want to take any responsibility for their own failures.

[Preety_India]

America is like an amphitheater. The whole world is watching. 

America is really standing on the cliff of a mountain. It's glorious, inspiring and scary at the same time, much like the Titanic. 

The downfall of America will have a huge ripple effect across the world because for the longest time in modern history, America stood as a modern cultural symbol for the rest of the world, a leader to rely on and follow. 

The downfall of America might cause chaos in the world because this will be an unprecedented event in modern history, seeing a democracy coming to an end will be very traumatizing for an entire world that hoped to achieve the ideal of liberty, a symbol of American pride for several decades. 

The fall of democracy in America will be an emotional moment in human history. 

I hope America gets back up again. Time for Americans to bring an end to the menace. 

 

It's sad because the world depended on America. 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

A very good discussion on this topic. 

 

[DocWatts]

6 hours ago, Space Lizard said:

Is the right wing responsible for the decay and crime we're seeing in American cities that have been run by liberals for decades? Is the right wing driving people out of liberal regions to more conservative locales like Florida, Arizona or Idaho? Blaming everything on the right wing seems to be a favorite tactic of people who don't want to take any responsibility for their own failures.

If America ceases to be democracy in the next decade or two (or more likely becomes a hybrid democratic/authoritarian regime), it will be due to the willful action of a radicalized authoritarian Right 

That said, while the Right isn't solely responsible for every systemic problem in America, it's absolutely true that the Far Right is opportunistically taking advantage of systemic failures to dismantle democracy.

Hitler and the Nazis may not have caused World War 1 or the The Great Depression, but they sure as shit used that as a jumping off point to destroy what remained of democracy in 1930s Germany.

Edited December 4, 2021 by DocWatts

[Space Lizard]

You're talking about symptoms more than causes. What is causing people to lose faith in democracy? A healthy system doesn't produce this level of discontent. It's better to deal with the underlying disease than just treat the symptoms. The "far right" has little power; all major American institutions are controlled by moderates and liberals. If there is a systemic failure, we have to look first at the people running the show, not the guys on the margins.

[DocWatts]

48 minutes ago, Space Lizard said:

You're talking about symptoms more than causes. What is causing people to lose faith in democracy? A healthy system doesn't produce this level of discontent. It's better to deal with the underlying disease than just treat the symptoms. The "far right" has little power; all major American institutions are controlled by moderates and liberals. If there is a systemic failure, we have to look first at the people running the show, not the guys on the margins.

That is factually incorrect. 

The antiquated and undemocratic structure of the US Senate effectively gives a small minority of rural conservatives an outsized and undemocratic amount of political influence, and effective veto power over the political agenda of the rest of the country.

Conservatives make up a two thirds majority on the Supreme Court. Not at all reflective of the political makeup of the country (which is loosely one third conservative, one third moderate, and one third liberal).

This is compounded by an Electoral College who antiquated structure also benefits rural conservatives at the expense of the rest of the country. If the president were chosen by direct popular vote it's doubtful whether we'd see another Republican become president in our life times.

That's leaving aside widespread voter suppression efforts by the Right which further weights the system in thier favor.

You are right though that a healthy democracy doesn't have this level of discontent in it. There are several systemic problems that brought us to where we are now, and many of these (such as the decline in living standards over the last half century) are a direct result of increased influence of right wing ideology in both political parties.

The Democratic Party abandoning the working class in favor of business interests, and the Republicans becoming a Corporatist party with no regard whatsoever for the well being of the country or its citizens are demonstrations of this.

Edited December 4, 2021 by DocWatts

[NatureB]

https://youtu.be/tyTWJs4pO2E

[Willie]

10 hours ago, NatureB said:

https://youtu.be/tyTWJs4pO2E

That would be fantastic if enough people agreed to it...

[Yarco]

I don't think the system can be reformed by the regular voting process at this point. 

You have to hope that someone is charismatic enough to get elected that's also smart enough to fix it from the inside. And also hope the system isn't so corrupt that they're powerless to do anything anyway.

At this point places like California vs New York are so different from places like Texas that they might as well just peacefully separate and go their own way. I think breaking up America into 4 or 5 smaller countries would do a lot less damage than staying together. How can a country function when 50% of the citizens always disagree with the other on pretty much every policy?

[Opo]

15 hours ago, Yarco said:

How can a country function when 50% of the citizens always disagree with the other on pretty much every policy?

Welcome to a democracy. 

[DocWatts]

16 hours ago, Yarco said:

I How can a country function when 50% of the citizens always disagree with the other on pretty much every policy?

 

1 hour ago, Opo said:

Welcome to a democracy. 

It's not just that they disagree on virtually every political issue, it's that the necessary social solidarity for democracy to function is breaking down.

A democracy can survive societal disagreement over cultural issues as a result of its different regions being at different levels of development.

It can't survive when a third of the population ceases to believe in or adhere to basic democratic norms, or when a significant portion of the country supports political violence as a way to achieve its goals. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by DocWatts

[Opo]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

It can't survive when a third of the population ceases to believe in or adhere to basic democratic norms, or when a significant portion of the country supports political violence as a way to achieve its goals. 

Sure, I just hope you don't think America is there. 

[DocWatts]

37 minutes ago, Opo said:

Sure, I just hope you don't think America is there. 

Not yet, but things are moving in that direction.

If nothing at all is done to address the growing trends of radicalization and polarization, it's hard to see any other outcome as realistic.

By no means does Trump and the Republican Party's authoritarian disdain for democracy speak for all conservatives in America (Trump himself being a reactionary rather than a conservative), but there's a growing anti democracy movement within the right wing of this country that should be extremely worrying.

I'd estimate that perhaps %5-10 of the country would openly (and even enthusiasticly) support political violence to achieve thier goals, with perhaps another %15-20 who'd be uncomfortable with it but would consider it the lesser of two evils if it means saving the country from the 'liberal elites'.

Roughly a third of the country already believes that the 2020 election was fraudulent, and in a recent poll one third of Republicans were comfortable with stating that political violence might be necessary to save the country ( https://www.npr.org/2021/02/11/966498544/a-scary-survey-finding-4-in-10-republicans-say-political-violence-may-be-necessa ).

Obviously this is just projecting current trends out to the future and any number of things could happen to change this equilibrium, but I don't see American democracy as sustainable if what we've seen over the last 10 years becomes the new 'business as usual' in the upcoming decades.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by DocWatts

[ZenRising]

Ultimately all great empires fall, and history shows us that as they go into decline they tend to tear themselves apart from the inside... their people become anxious and fearful and cracks and divides emerge... I don't know if this is the case of the US, but it certainly looks like it...

[Happy Lizard]

@DocWatts when you say political violence what do you mean by this? 

Obviously whoever think they can turn the government down by an armed revolt is a lunatic, it's not 1800s you can't face the current day US military, as we've seen after jan 6, not a single red hat was spotted after the army was deployed. 

This is my take on the matter as a foreigner living in the US : I guess Americans were in deep slumber not realizing what's going on and distracted, with all of this happening, your are now witnessing what it feels like to wake up to what the country actually looks like. that's not to say when push comes to shove Americans would agree on something like tearing down democracy. I predict way more people will be moving towards saving it than now. it's just that we are In the shock phase, and it's going to take time before people start showing their real motives to support to democracy. 

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Happy Lizard said:

@DocWatts when you say political violence what do you mean by this? 

Obviously whoever think they can turn the government down by an armed revolt is a lunatic, it's not 1800s you can't face the current day US military, as we've seen after jan 6, not a single red hat was spotted after the army was deployed. 

This is my take on the matter as a foreigner living in the US : I guess Americans were in deep slumber not realizing what's going on and distracted, with all of this happening, your are now witnessing what it feels like to wake up to what the country actually looks like. that's not to say when push comes to shove Americans would agree on something like tearing down democracy. I predict way more people will be moving towards saving it than now. it's just that we are In the shock phase, and it's going to take time before people start showing their real motives to support to democracy. 

By political violence I don't necessarily mean they themselves are directly participating in violence (indeed only a small portion of people who support violent ideologies actually commit acts of violence themselves), but are either openly or tacitly supportive of political violence committed by their 'side', such as the January 6th insurrection.

An armed revolt will never work. What will work is voting in politicians whose aim is to erode democratic institutions and to begin implementing a hybrid authoritarian regime, where the facade of democracy remains but a plutocratic elite has no serious challenge to its authority  (similiar to what exists in Putin's Russia). This is the route that's being taken by the Republican Party.

The goal is to undermine trust in democratic institutions and build support for authoritarianism among a radicalized minority of the country.

At an entry level this includes voting for politicians who use dog whistle rhetoric to signal their support for political violence, as Trump has done on numerous occasions. The fact that the instigator of an attempted coup is likely going to be running again in 2024 with the enthusiastic support of perhaps a quarter of the country is a good indicator of how much things here have deteriorated.

Another example of this from where I live (Michigan) involved running in to people who were comfortable giving their vocal support to a foiled assassination attempt by a right wing terrorist group who attempt to kidnap and execute our state's governor.

By no means is this movement something that's supported by a majority of Americans, but then again the Nazis were never supported by a majority of Germans in the last days of the Weimar Republic.

Edited December 7, 2021 by DocWatts

[Happy Lizard]

@DocWatts Interesting. I somehow know about all what you mentioned. expect for the Michigan assassination attempt. 

what we are seeing is cartel, islamic state, book haram, going on here in the US, it's just taking place under our nose. I suspect people don't realize this as I do, due to probably never known that this possibility is present in the US (terrorist groups). or having been in close proximity with groups with such world-view.

Back in Jan 6 mega-thread I commented that there are a large number of the protestors giving me a direct impression that it's terrorist actors, but was told I'm being reactionary.

I don't believe the US military can be toyed with and turned into something like a natzi tool. I think people should take precaution though, military involvement might be necessary at some point to bring balance to this situation. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Happy Lizard

[Shin]

On 04/12/2021 at 8:53 PM, DocWatts said:

From an European point of view, this looks like a futuristic dystopia.