Seer and Seeing Problem

[Nahm]

11 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

I would say no since there needs to be a subject/hearer for there to be a sound.

Is that subject/hearer of direct experience, or concept? 

Has a subject/hearer ever been witnessed, seen, heard? 

[Tim R]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

Why couldn't seeing consists of two essential components.

Seer and seen.

@WokeBloke Uno reverse Card: why would there be any separation between "the seer" and "what is seen"? 

In your direct experience, there is only seeing. You can't see the difference between seen and seer, can you? 

Close your eyes and listen. Listen until you get deeply absorbed into the chanting. 

And then, try to hear the difference between the sound and yourself (the alleged "hearer"). 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

Is that subject/hearer of direct experience, or concept? 

Has a subject/hearer ever been witnessed, seen, heard? 

Other people (such as me) are subjects that can be seen and heard.

[WokeBloke]

3 minutes ago, Tim R said:

@WokeBloke Uno reverse Card: why would there be any separation between "the seer" and "what is seen"? 

In your direct experience, there is only seeing. You can't see the difference between seen and seer, can you? 

Close your eyes and listen. Listen until you get deeply absorbed into the chanting. 

And then, try to hear the difference between the sound and yourself (the alleged "hearer"). 

Seer has eyes. most stuff that is seen doesn't have eyes. 

[Tim R]

@WokeBloke Investigate instead of speculating. 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Tim R said:

@WokeBloke Investigate instead of speculating. 

Does your computer have eyes?

[Nahm]

34 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Other people (such as me) are subjects that can be seen and heard.

How can you tell that is perception, vs thoughts about perception?  What is the direct experience? 

Meditation.

[WokeBloke]

23 minutes ago, Nahm said:

How can you tell that is perception, vs thoughts about perception?  What is the direct experience? 

Meditation.

So you do not think I am experiencing?

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, WokeBloke said:

Other people (such as me) are subjects that can be seen and heard.

So you do not think I am experiencing?

I’m suggesting inspection of direct experience to find out if that claim pans out to be true. Meditation, so to speak, creates ample investigation non-thought-reaction ‘space’. Whatever the thought is, it is, always just another thought, including thoughts about thinking, that there are other thinkers, and that there is a problem. 

[Danioover9000]

@WokeBloke

21 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Okay so I see some people say there is seeing but no seer. Hearing but no hearer. Etc.

 

My rebuttal for what it's worth...

 

Is there seeing?

If no then nothing is happening and all is well since nothing is happening.

If yes then proceed to next question.

 

Is there a seer?

If no then who/what is seeing?

If nothing/no one is seeing then there is no seeing since there isn't anything/anyone seeing

 

Thus since there is seeing there must be a seer. Where am I wrong?

   I am everything that exists, and the absence of all creation, and all of division that destroys. Who am I?

[WokeBloke]

10 minutes ago, Nahm said:

I’m suggesting inspection of direct experience to find out if that claim pans out to be true. Meditation, so to speak, creates ample investigation non-thought-reaction ‘space’. Whatever the thought is, it is, always just another thought, including thoughts about thinking, that there are other thinkers, and that there is a problem. 

Am I producing thoughts for you?

[At awe]

@WokeBloke Imagine a person playing with sock puppets. One in left one in right. Just for fun these puppets got an ability to think that it’s actually them who are running the show...

Now imagine that the one holding the puppets has countless hands.

So the question is, is the puppet willing to give away the illusion that it’s running the show? 

I’m still a puppet. 

[WokeBloke]

10 hours ago, At awe said:

@WokeBloke Imagine a person playing with sock puppets. One in left one in right. Just for fun these puppets got an ability to think that it’s actually them who are running the show...

Now imagine that the one holding the puppets has countless hands.

So the question is, is the puppet willing to give away the illusion that it’s running the show? 

I’m still a puppet. 

now imagine if the puppet realized it was every puppet and thus the puppet master.