Joe Rogan IG Post, a Mind Infected by Ideology

[AdroseAkise]

The portraying of Liberals as effeminate is a classic time old demonization.

[Fleetinglife]

On 11/28/2021 at 11:58 PM, Carl-Richard said:

I can't believe that I would ever hear about this medieval dude ever again on this forum...

What!? How dare you! I was taught in my sociology class that Ibn Khaldun is considered by some to be the proto founding father of the scientific discipline of sociology (I kid you not I was taught this as a part of one of my classes (and had to briefly check out his work) my former study field with the content of his writings and providing the first generalized social theory explaining and formulating a law for changes within in human society and their way of social organization) before it was officially formalized as an independent scientific field in the 19th century.

So, once again, sir, I ask you: How dare you!? To think you would not ever hear about Ibn Khaldun again, I did not pretend to study my field in vain so I would not know or ever hear again about such 'relevant factography for discourse about modern society' and I promise you this is not the last you will hear of him again! (Jk )

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[Carl-Richard]

13 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

What!? How dare you! I was thought in my sociology class that Ibn Khaldun is considered by some to be the proto founding father of the scientific discipline of sociology (I kid you not I was taught this as a part of one of my classes (and had to briefly check out his work) my former study field with the content of his writings and providing the first generalized social theory explaining and formulating a law for changes within in human society and their way of social organization) before it was officially formalized as an independent scientific field in the 19th century.

So, once again, sir, I ask you: How dare you!? To think you would not ever hear about Ibn Khaldun again, I did not pretend to study my field in vain so I would not know or ever hear again about such 'relevant factography for discourse about modern society' and I promise you this is not the last you will hear of him again! (Jk )

Plato and Aristotle were also ingenious innovators for their time period. That doesn't mean their theories are cutting edge today.

[Fleetinglife]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Plato and Aristotle were also ingenious innovators for their time period. That doesn't mean their theories are cutting edge today.

Not perhaps as the one paradigmatic theoretical framework for explaining away all the foundations, changes,  phenomena, laws, and relations in modern society and the world today, but for individual development, lifestyle, and growth they are still relevant today as useful guidelines and insight generating work for one's life and for some mistakes and problems humans still make in society. Though I think generally agree they are not as relevant as political and social go-to's as much today.

''this is Aristotle's moderation, finding that in the middle. Because missing the mark is either going too far or too short.

Yes, I would think absolutely so and that’s why the prophet Muhammad and the Buddha called his way: The Middle Way. There is a really interesting story of the Buddha, he had been an ascetic and had been this anchorite that has wasted his body, but he saw a musician teaching somebody how to tune a sitar and he said: ‘’You don’t want to tune it too tight because it will break but you don’t want to tune it to low because you will not get a tone. You want to find that middle spot and that was his beginning of the understanding of the sweet spot, tuning the soul.”

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I remember you saying that you don't think that Rogan is necessarily a right-winger like progressives such as Cenk make them out to be, but are you now changing your mind about that?

He's not an ideological right-winger.

He's a blend of libertarian, hippie, and macho ideals. And he is quite openminded on many things. But he still has cringe takes. He's not a deep thinker. He lacks intellectual rigor.

Cenk is wrong in this characterization of Rogan. I give Rogan more credit. But he is easily influenced by his right-wing buddies.

Rogan is sorta stuck between Orange and Green, oscilating back and forth.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, AdroseAkise said:

The portraying of Liberals as effeminate is a classic time old demonization.

Well, stage Green is more in touch with compassion and the feminine side.

Blue & Orange misunderstands Green as weakness / "pussiness". This is where Sprial Dynamics is so useful. It's crucial to see that Green is more evolved than Blue & Orange.

This is what right-wingers are missing.

[Raptorsin7]

11 hours ago, DocWatts said:

@Raptorsin7

There's a place for personal responsibility, but people need to be given a fair chance to succeed through external love and support. Moralizing at disadvantaged.communities without doing anything to actually address (or even understand) the obstacles that they face amounts to little more than talking down to people. It's condescending and insulting.

Just preaching personal responsibility without advocating for actual policy solutions to address external barriers that make it harder to self actualize is evidence that you're not actually concerned about the well being of the people you're talking down to.

Candice Owens is about as interested in the problems faced by disadvantaged communities as Fossil Fuel companies are in 'solving' climate change.

Both are Bad Faith actors who are more interested in sweeping problems under the rug than in actually doing anything to solve problems, because both cases involve some amount of sacrifice (in the form of higher taxes, regulations, etc) from those who have isolated themselves from systemic problems 

Well before there can be policy prescriptions you have to be honest about the problem, which is not what's happening right now with politics.

Can you show me left wing speakers/thinkers who have a thorough analysis of personal responsibility and decision making?

18% of men are responsible for 80% of the children in black america, can you show me where this is being addressed as a toxic element of culture by the left? 

I am preaching personal responsibility because it is a blindspot for people on the left and on the forum. Everyone just dismisses these values as right wing because they have a myopic view on the topic. Growing up the spiral requires integration of lower stages. Black america is struggling with the transition from Red to Blue, and so clearly blue values are instrumental in their progression. 

Also, being insulted by an argument does not effect the quality of the argument. If anything it shows you have an overly sensitive ego. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[ZenSwift]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Vaush does a good job dismantling it:

It's simply not a historically accurate analysis of anything.

And defining Nazi's as strong men is absurd.

Very insightful thankyou.

How to avoid falling for stuff like this?

[DocWatts]

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Well before there can be policy prescriptions you have to be honest about the problem, which is not what's happening right now with politics.

Can you show me left wing speakers/thinkers who have a thorough analysis of personal responsibility and decision making?

That's because you can moralize and preach to people until you're blue in the face, but until you actually take the time and effort to understand and address the obstacles that are making it difficult for disadvantaged communities to self actualize it's not going to work.

At a minimum this would include public investments to provide well funded schools, functional infrastructure, jobs that pay a livable wage, public transportation, affordable housing, funding for public safety, support for at risk teenagers through youth programs and sports, sex education including easily available contraceptives, and an actual path out of poverty and towards a decent life.

If the person outside of these communities is advocating for these things in a serious way, then I have no problem whatsoever with advocating for personal responsibility as part of this overall solution.

But if your only 'solution' is to moralize at people without addressing any of these underlying systemic issues that are at the root of toxic and dysfunctional behavior, I feel no compunction on calling that behavior out as at best counter productive and at worst as potentially racist (or at the very least aggressively insensitive and ignorant).

[ZenSwift]

YO I just realized that the image is placed upon an political compass  

[Hardkill]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He's not an ideological right-winger.

He's a blend of libertarian, hippie, and macho ideals. And he is quite openminded on many things. But he still has cringe takes. He's not a deep thinker. He lacks intellectual rigor.

Cenk is wrong in this characterization of Rogan. I give Rogan more credit. But he is easily influenced by his right-wing buddies.

Rogan is sorta stuck between Orange and Green, oscilating back and forth.

I see. Yeah, that's a fair point.

Btw, you still have him listed in your stage Yellow Examples Mega Thread. He may have some stage Green traits in him, but there's no way that Rogan is a stage Yellow being at all. Like you just said, he is not an intellectual who has a deep understanding of the world or the universe. He can't even comprehend why the right ideology is so toxic and why it has had such a negative influence on him. Furthermore, as far as I am concerned, I don't even think he has a really impressive level of education.

[Raptorsin7]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

That's because you can moralize and preach to people until you're blue in the face, but until you actually take the time and effort to understand and address the obstacles that are making it difficult for disadvantaged communities to self actualize it's not going to work.

Have you ever seen Kevin Samuels? That's what he does, he moralizes and preaches and uses other people to make an example of the toxic culture for black america. And other people watch it, and they can see themselves in the people being confronted. And they can change their behavior and reflect on their delusions etc, because they can see it clearly.

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

At a minimum this would include public investments to provide well funded schools, functional infrastructure, jobs that pay a livable wage, public transportation, affordable housing, funding for public safety, support for at risk teenagers through youth programs and sports, sex education including easily available contraceptives, and an actual path out of poverty and towards a decent life.

I am not saying there is no role for any of these things. There is a role, but you are missing a foundational piece.

You can have the most well funded schools in the world. If the child does not take advantage of the school then what is the point?

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

But if your only 'solution' is to moralize at people without addressing any of these underlying systemic issues that are at the root of toxic and dysfunctional behavior, I feel no compunction on calling that behavior out as at best counter productive and at worst as potentially racist (or at the very least aggressively insensitive and ignorant).

That's not my only solution, you are just making assumptions about my position.

There is a blindspot on this forum and in left wing politics, and given cancel culture etc there are very few people who are calling this stuff out.

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

You can have the most well funded schools in the world. If the child does not take advantage of the school then what is the point?

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Is this really what is happening? Where are the well-funded schools and stable neighborhoods that don't take advantage of them? You're getting lost in hypotheticals here. We're talking about on-the-ground issues.

[Raptorsin7]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is this really what is happening? Where are the well-funded schools and stable neighborhoods that don't take advantage of them? You're getting lost in hypotheticals here. We're talking about on-the-ground issues.

Well i've been a student. And the quality of the school didn't matter much because I was self motivated to learn. I learned most of what I knew from the textbooks, the teachers weren't all that important in hindsight.

Have you seen how much the states and governments spend on students? 

Do you believe students from poor neighborhoods like black/brown communities in the US, would perform well in school if increased funding dramatically? How much would you expect to spend?

The parents instill beliefs and values on their children, unless you want to put kids in schools from basically infancy to adulthood, then you will still be given a wounded mind to teach. 

Also, speaking of hypotheticals. SIngle motherhood is probably the most, if not one of the most, pressing problems facing black america. This is solved by stage blue values and ideals. Can you explain to me the leftist solution for single motherhood in black america?

The current solution has been expand welfare, which incentivizes woman to have children they can't afford, and it also incentivizes woman to ditch men because the state will provide support.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Epikur]

48 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Have you ever seen Kevin Samuels? That's what he does, he moralizes and preaches and uses other people to make an example of the toxic culture for black america. And other people watch it, and they can see themselves in the people being confronted. And they can change their behavior and reflect on their delusions etc, because they can see it clearly.

I am not saying there is no role for any of these things. There is a role, but you are missing a foundational piece.

You can have the most well funded schools in the world. If the child does not take advantage of the school then what is the point?

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

That's not my only solution, you are just making assumptions about my position.

There is a blindspot on this forum and in left wing politics, and given cancel culture etc there are very few people who are calling this stuff out.

It is not a blindspot. Many are aware of it but chose not to talk about it too much because it is against the forum culture. 

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Epikur said:

It is not a blindspot. Many are aware of it but chose not to talk about it too much because it is against the forum culture. 

If they could truly see it then they would talk about it imo. People are not knowingly dishonest, there are always unconscious factors driving the behavior.

But I agree there are certain topics where people are aware they do not have the substance to argue so they deflect, shame, gaslight etc. That is common the forum

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

I see. Yeah, that's a fair point.

Btw, you still have him listed in your stage Yellow Examples Mega Thread. He may have some stage Green traits in him, but there's no way that Rogan is a stage Yellow being at all.

As I stressed in that video, it's Rogan's openmindedness that I consider a Yellow trait.

He is a very openminded guy. But this does not mean all his takes are good or that he is solid Yellow himself. He obviously has a lot of Orange holding him back.

[Epikur]

4 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

If they could truly see it then they would talk about it imo. People are not knowingly dishonest, there are always unconscious factors driving the behavior.

But I agree there are certain topics where people are aware they do not have the substance to argue so they deflect, shame, gaslight etc. That is common the forum

This forum has a left bias. So talking about stuff that can be perceived as right wing talking points can get you banned. That is why centrist guys here do not post stuff like that.

Leftist guys do self censoring. You can not tell the truth in the wrong context. So being dishonest is the honest thing to do because you do not want to hurt your cause.

 

[Raptorsin7]

15 minutes ago, Epikur said:

Leftist guys do self censoring. You can not tell the truth in the wrong context. So being dishonest is the honest thing to do because you do not want to hurt your cause.

Yeah you see this with leftist political channels. They cannot be honest because it would go against their audience, ideology etc. Sometimes you can see the urge to be honest come up in real time, but then they deflect, etc

[Epikur]

14 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Yeah you see this with leftist political channels. They cannot be honest because it would go against their audience, ideology etc. Sometimes you can see the urge to be honest come up in real time, but then they deflect, etc

Exactly. It becomes then awkward when they have friends who are centrists like with Destiny and David Pakman.

 

Btw then you have the special brand of leftists like Jimmy Dore. That is a weird one.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Epikur