Joe Rogan IG Post, a Mind Infected by Ideology

[Raptorsin7]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I used your answer to my question to demonstrate my point. Consider yourself used ?

Ahh I see your point. It took a minute haha.

Still my question has validity. Who would you rather have run the country?

12 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Enlighten me.

One example would be how Candice owens etc are the only one's who discuss black on black violence in the media. There is a level of personal responsibility and accountability that is completely ignored and shouted down in the left wing spaces. But that doesn't mean Candice Owens is right about most issues etc, I think she is very foolish. But on this point I agree.

Go watch someone like David Ramsay who is a very stage blue financial guru. He preaches accountability, discipline etc. He's almost certainly a republican. There are many left wing people who really need to understand accountability, discipline etc but they would dismiss Ramsay because he looks like a stereotypical racist southern white guy

[Carl-Richard]

48 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Still my question has validity. Who would you rather have run the country?

Not ideologues who are enslaved by their small perspective. Lack of awareness is the epitome of weakness.

 

48 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

One example would be how Candice owens etc are the only one's who discuss black on black violence in the media. There is a level of personal responsibility and accountability that is completely ignored and shouted down in the left wing spaces.

Preaching personal responsibility to victims of structural violence is insensitive and one-dimensional.

 

48 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Go watch someone like David Ramsay who is a very stage blue financial guru. He preaches accountability, discipline etc. He's almost certainly a republican. There are many left wing people who really need to understand accountability, discipline etc but they would dismiss Ramsay because he looks like a stereotypical racist southern white guy

When I say principles outside ideology, I mean things like epistemology, scientific literacy and inclusive empathy. Discipline and accountability is baked into their ideology. It doesn't come from a sober systems view.

[Rilles]

48 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

One example would be how Candice owens etc are the only one's who discuss black on black violence in the media

Yeah, cause noone has ever made that talking point before, lmao. 

[Raptorsin7]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Not ideologues who are enslaved by their small perspective.

So you would choose neither?

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Preaching personal responsibility to victims of structural violence is insensitive and one-dimensional.

 

So what is the role of personal responsibility for those who suffer from structure violence?

 

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

When I say principles outside ideology, I mean things like epistemology, scientific literacy and inclusive empathy. Discipline and accountability is baked into their ideology. It doesn't come from a sober systems view.

So you're saying discipline and accountability aren't part of a sober systems view?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Raptorsin7]

3 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Yeah, cause noone has ever made that talking point before, lmao. 

Can you show me someone on the left who gives a meaningfulness analysis of black on black violence? Maybe there is an inclusive perspective I am missing.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Raptorsin7 said:

So you would choose neither?

What can I say – I'm an utopian.

 

1 minute ago, Raptorsin7 said:

So what is the role of personal responsibility to those who suffer from structure violence?

There is an obvious role, but it's not the only solution. You need structural change as well. Analytic thinking has to be combined with holistic thinking: you need both individual and collective responsibility. The right-wing is helplessly stuck on the former without even knowing it.

 

5 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

So you're saying discipline and accountability aren't part of a sober systems view?

No, Ms. Newman. I said right-wingers derive those values from their contracted ideology rather than a metatheoretical, conscious, inclusive, holistic, systemic view.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Can you show me someone on the left who gives a meaningfulness analysis of black on black violence? Maybe there is an inclusive perspective I am missing.

How about 200 years of racism and slavery? Maybe that has something to do with it?

[Raptorsin7]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How about 200 years of racism and slavery? Maybe that has something to do with it?

Why do you assume that I am saying personal responsibility is the one and only reason for the issues faced by the black community?

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

No, Ms. Newman. I said right-wingers derive those values from their contracted ideology rather than a metatheoretical, conscious, inclusive, holistic, systemic view.

So right wing values are not conscious values?

[DocWatts]

@Raptorsin7

There's a place for personal responsibility, but people need to be given a fair chance to succeed through external love and support. Moralizing at disadvantaged.communities without doing anything to actually address (or even understand) the obstacles that they face amounts to little more than talking down to people. It's condescending and insulting.

Just preaching personal responsibility without advocating for actual policy solutions to address external barriers that make it harder to self actualize is evidence that you're not actually concerned about the well being of the people you're talking down to.

Candice Owens is about as interested in the problems faced by disadvantaged communities as Fossil Fuel companies are in 'solving' climate change.

Both are Bad Faith actors who are more interested in sweeping problems under the rug than in actually doing anything to solve problems, because both cases involve some amount of sacrifice (in the form of higher taxes, regulations, etc) from those who have isolated themselves from systemic problems 

Edited November 29, 2021 by DocWatts

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Raptorsin7 said:

So right wing values are not conscious values?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do you assume that I am saying personal responsibility is the one and only reason for the issues faced by the black community?

I didn't assume anything. You asked for a reason for black on black violence. I gave it to you.

Black on black violence is the result of poverty caused by hundreds of years of oppression and marginalization. There is not sufficient wealth in black communities because they were impoverished for generations as a race. When you lack wealth you are forced to resort to violence to make ends meet.

[Epikur]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

@Raptorsin7

There's a place for personal responsibility, but people need to be given a fair chance to succeed through external love and support. Moralizing at disadvantaged.communities without doing anything to actually address (or even understand) the obstacles that they face amounts to little more than talking down to people. It's condescending and insulting.

Just preaching personal responsibility without advocating for actual policy solutions to address external barriers that make it harder to self actualize is evidence that you're not actually concerned about the well being of the people you're talking down to.

Candice Owens is about as interested in the problems faced by disadvantaged communities as Fossil Fuel companies are in 'solving' climate change.

Both are Bad Faith actors who are more interested in sweeping problems under the rug than in actually doing anything to solve problems, because both cases involve some amount of sacrifice (in the form of higher taxes, regulations, etc) from those who have isolated themselves from systemic problems 

If you are in a bad situation you have to expect worst case scenarios. Sometimes you will not get help even if you morally deserve it. So sometimes your only choice is to invest in yourself.

[Raptorsin7]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I didn't assume anything. You asked for a reason for black on black violence. I gave it to you.

Black on black violence is the result of poverty caused by hundreds of years of oppression and marginalization. There is not sufficient wealth in black communities because they were impoverished for generations as a race.

So there is no role of personal responsibility in black on black violence?

[ChadT]

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by ChadT

[Danioover9000]

@kieranperez

   Are you happy with what you started? We are slowly spiraling into chaos over a post.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Not ideologues who are enslaved by their small perspective. Lack of awareness is the epitome of weakness.

 

Preaching personal responsibility to victims of structural violence is insensitive and one-dimensional.

 

When I say principles outside ideology, I mean things like epistemology, scientific literacy and inclusive empathy. Discipline and accountability is baked into their ideology. It doesn't come from a sober systems view.

   I wouldn't say it's insulting, but more like an asymmetrical comparison. The suggesting of more personal responsibility to victims of structural violence, is like comparing a bad apple to some fungus plague spreading throughout a banana farm.

   Wait a minute, what does this have to do with OP's main post? We are really venturing off into the wild here. 

[DocWatts]

57 minutes ago, Epikur said:

If you are in a bad situation you have to expect worst case scenarios. Sometimes you will not get help even if you morally deserve it. So sometimes your only choice is to invest in yourself.

That's totally valid.

But at the same time whether this is being said from an insider vs an outsider's perspective makes all the difference. In a way it's a version of saying something similar from below (an outsider parroting discussions internal to that community for self serving reasons) or above (an insider with understanding that comes from lived experience).

Similiar to how something like science can be critiqued from either below or above.

To someone who's actually living in the bad situation your point can be potentially empowering, because a victim mindset isn't actually helpful for getting yourself out of a bad situation.

An outsider parroting some of those same points without an actual understanding of the obstacles that people in a bad scenario will come across as condescending and potentially insulting.

Rather than helping anyone, all they're really doing is absolving the broader society of its responsibility to remove external obstacles and barriers that that community is facing.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by DocWatts

[Danioover9000]

1 minute ago, DocWatts said:

That's totally valid.

But at the same time whether this is being said as an insider vs an outsider's perspective makes all the difference. In a way it's a version of saying something similar from below (an outsider parroting discussions internal to that community for self serving reasons) or above (an insider with understanding that comes from lived experience).

To someone who's actually living in the bad situation your point can be potentially empowering, because a victim mindset isn't actually helpful for getting yourself out of a bad situation.

An outsider parroting some of those same points without an actual understanding of the obstacles that people in a bad scenario will come across as condescending and potentially insulting.

Rather than helping anyone, all they're really doing is absolving the broader society of its responsibility to remove external obstacles and barriers that that community is facing.

 

   This is why there has to be shifting balances of both insider and outsider perspectives.

[DocWatts]

16 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   This is why there has to be shifting balances of both insider and outsider perspectives.

I kind of liken it to the differing roles and responsibilities for someone who has suffered a traumatic experience, versus how a community should respond to that happening.

If you're going through a traumatic experience yourself, it's completely reasonable to look for warning signs you may have missed, what you could have done differently, etc.

An outsider's role in this scenario is to provide love and support. Not to punitively criticize and berate that person for what they could have done differently in the bad scenario. Not to parrot thier words back at them to justify not helping that person.

Edited November 29, 2021 by DocWatts

[Epikur]

6 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

I kind of liken it to the differing roles and responsibilities for someone who has suffered a traumatic experience, versus how a community should respond to that happening.

If you're going through a traumatic experience yourself, it's completely reasonable to look for warning signs you may have missed, what you could have done differently, etc.

An outsider's role in this scenario is to provide love and support. Not to criticize and berate that person for what they could have done differently in the bad scenario. Not to parrot thier words back at them to justify not helping that person.

Good effort to give advice is not always a bad thing. In most cases even that is not given. People get bullied.