Casual sex vs relationships - your opinions?

[Raze]

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Raptorsin7 said:

Lol why do you believe this true?

If a woman is high quality don't you believe she would not be attracted to scum bags?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI73CQtDqKQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkwxdEVBe0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPIZWWzJjYE

yes

[Jacquelope]

15 hours ago, Yarco said:

I'm married now and I regret not having sex with more women first.

If you don't get it out of your system, you'll always be daydreaming and wondering "what if". You never got a chance to sleep with X or Y kind of girl. In the long term I think it will probably make you more predisposed to cheating.

Unless you get an uncureable STD or a girl pregnant, I don't think you'll ever regret having more sex before settling down.

Our education system does a huge disservice by scaring kids through sex ed to the point of traumatizing them against having sex. I had so many opportunities to have sex with girls that I passed up early on for fear that I'd catch AIDS or get her pregnant even with a condom the first time I had sex. Fuck that shit, it ruined my life and so much potential enjoyment.

You aren't doing some moral thing, by the time you're 20 years old every chick has fucked at least a dozen dudes, probably more like 30. The body counts I hear from average-looking women is astounding. You're just kneecapping yourself. Don't try to be some noble knight, just fuck bitches.

I want to answer this... I've missed out on plenty of hot babes / X and Y kind of girls even though I did have casual sex in my youth. I still never cheated on my wife nor did I want to. Lots of casual sex doesn't cure "fear of missing out". There is always going to be Z kind of woman that you never had sex with. But at some point too much casual sex does damage a man's ability to pair-bond just like it does for women.

As for the rest, Leo already addressed that with authority and wisdom.

13 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Wrote somethings about my thoughts on casual sex in my journal: 

Thank you very much for all of this!

 

6 hours ago, zazen said:

@Jacquelope Interesting, didn't know that many women earn more than their husbands and are happy. Very contrary to the typical red pill beliefs. Men do have to look past just looks and I think thats where also society isn't doing a great job. Women are behaving in un feminine ways (cursing, sleeping around like men, drinking to excess, being arrogant loud etc) so besides looks that fade leaving much to be desired, and unfortunately thats partly due to society and them having to take on  masculine traits to survive and win in the modern economy and work places as they are competing against other men. 

 

Whats your take on the below: 

The way people met in the past when casual sex was looked down upon was through courting each other (without sex) until they met someone they matched with, then got into a serious relationship in which sexually things happened or waited and usually lead to marriage. Now, people get to know each other whilst having sex which on a biological level bonds people and blinds them to each others compatibilities. People who maybe shouldn't be together end up being together and it not working out down the line, or they know and do end things once they come to their senses and the honeymoon period fades but this causes a lot of heartbreak in the process. In the past people would experience maybe 2-3 heartbreaks over a lifetime of long relationships, now we experience this by our mid 20's or sooner which traumatises us, causes bitterness, baggage and distrust between the genders. We'v almost objectified everything in our consumerist society, even people. Dating apps feel like a catalogue swiping through objects rather than humans and its as if we've become disposable.

 

If everyone was to follow the casual dating approach to find the perfect one and find what we like, doesn't that process ruin the very society of people you want to have that relationship in? Meaning, the collateral and emotional damage casual dating causes, ruins our ability and others to bond and be happy in future relationships due to baggage, becoming embittered of the opposite gender etc to the point of giving up, becoming hopeless/nihilistic regarding relationships which are the corner stone of human happiness (we are social species). We bring our past to our current relationships, maybe past lovers pull us to cheat etc or the hope of what if, what next or what if theres someone better out there. Another short sighted trope in the red pill /conservative groups is marry virgin or 1-2 body count girls, not realising these girls can also feel the pull of fomo and wanting to see whats out there. Many girls marrying young end up breaking up in their later 20's to explore their options whilst their still youthful for example.

 

Its a weird paradox I can't get my head around and don't know what the future looks like for modern relationships at this point. The way the culture/society is has people who are in a relationship who haven't seen whats out there get feelings of FOMO as @Yarco pointed out (feeling of sexual debt). In the past we wouldn't be teased by these options because casual sex wasn't allowed and dating apps, big cities where we have access to millions of people etc didn't exist. The grass isn't always green on the other side but just where you water it maybe. 

 

I can envision us becoming serial monogamist's  (no more monogamy for life or very long term relationships ie over 7+ years until people get to their old age and want someone to ride off into the sunset with) with a small sub group experimenting with polyamory but most people won't be cut out for it due to jealousy etc. 

First thing, Red Pill is very good at understanding what the Tinder era women behave like. They correctly understand this is a very widespread spiritual pandemic affecting most women. The problem with Red Pill  is they are trapped in a mindset where they only see or run into these toxic women. Their mentally damagd tactics are designed to win over these damaged women. There are good women out there and Red Pill is totally, tragically unsuited to finding or connecting with these women. And your take on their virgin obsession is also right on the mark, these virgins can also experience FOMO and resort to cheating, just like their husbands can.

Secondly, I believe that dating apps should be approached with caution and understanding of their strengths and weaknesses.

The main strength of dating apps is all the women there are pre-qualified: you're not walking into a supermarket and hitting on a woman only to find she is not at all interested in being talked to. You're not intruding on her space like a door to door salesman. She is essentially a pre-qualified lead, although like pre-Q'd leads there's no guarantee of success. If you're approaching her in a dating app, she is interested in someone, even if ultimately it isn't you. This is huge.

The drawback of dating apps is larger hordes of men are potentially competing for smaller groups of women. That's huge also, as some reports show the gender skew can be disastrously high, up to 3 men to every 1 woman in some cases. This disparity makes success for a man mathematically unlikely no matter how high value he is. Yet it is still better than real life matchups, even dating in your social circle is less successful.

As for my take on casual sex and relationships, Raze posted a chart that summarizes my opinion on that. Excessive hookups ruins a person, to be concise about it. Of course, to quote a song, the good old days aren't as good as they say, the reality is we need moderation. People did pair-bond for life before but there was a lot of abuse and cheating. What went wrong with the old ways is husbands weren't punished so hard for cheating but the wife was, she couldn't earn her own money or own her own property and then there was the abuse. These are some of the things that we needed to fix to restore a proper culture of monogamy. A lot of it is now fixed, except the glorification of men sleeping around on their LTR partners. Men also need to decouple their masculinity and self-esteem from how much they earn, how good looking their partner is, and how alpha/dominant they are.

Back to dating apps, we need to discourage hookups, first of all it disadvantages men (see: the law of supply and demand) and grossly distorts women's ego and gives them a false sense of superiority, and as Raze said it damages one's ability to achieve satisfaction in an LTR. Serial monogamy is not the inevitable end of things in society. We can go back to a healthier and more gender equitable form of monogamy which will benefit society as a whole.

[Terell Kirby]

On 11/22/2021 at 9:10 PM, Jacquelope said:

Summary: "getting laid" should never be the goal of a man. Long term intimacy and deep connection with one high-quality woman should take its place as the male imperative.

Thoughts?

Getting laid should be the first goal, especially for in-cels / virgins. Healthy , long term intimacy cannot even be conceived by men unless they burn through their sexual karma.

I wish some of you on the forum would stop denying your sexual cravings out of fear of rejection by women. 

[Jacquelope]

11 hours ago, Terell Kirby said:

Getting laid should be the first goal, especially for in-cels / virgins. Healthy , long term intimacy cannot even be conceived by men unless they burn through their sexual karma.

I wish some of you on the forum would stop denying your sexual cravings out of fear of rejection by women. 

When our cravings are out of control, we are overprioritizing them, we are choosing the wrong strategies to pursue them, and are getting in trouble while achieving them, we do need to fix things. It's not about denial, it's about self-control. There are worse things for a man than not getting laid - sometimes it is having sex with the wrong woman for the wrong reasons that can hurt him even more. Johnny Depp would happy tell you about one extreme example. His uncontrolled cravings led him to leave the mother of his child and fall into the arms of Amber Heard.  We know how far sideways that went.

[something_else]

You can blow this out of the water by asking yourself if you would still have this mindset if you had an abundance of attractive women wanting to have sex with you. If that were the case, you would not have this position. You only hold this position because you believe or feel women are scarce and so you need coping mechanisms to deal with this fact

It's a classic defence mechanism for guys who get rejected or don't get as much sex as they'd like, you see it over and over. I was full into this mindset when I was a nerdy school kid and I knew several others who did too. And now I know it's incredibly toxic. "Women aren't that great anyway", "I'm just not that sexual, I prioritise the important things in life", "All this socialising and partying is beneath me", "Sex isn't a big deal for me", "She wasn't that attractive anyway" – These are all lies you tell yourself to cope with the lack of sex and they are toxic to your existence and this kind of thinking is the basis for your position here. It assumes women are scarce

18 hours ago, Terell Kirby said:

stop denying your sexual cravings out of fear of rejection by women.

This^

6 hours ago, Jacquelope said:

There are worse things for a man than not getting laid

I can't think of a much worse thing for a man than being a lonely virgin until death

6 hours ago, Jacquelope said:

sometimes it is having sex with the wrong woman for the wrong reasons that can hurt him even more. Johnny Depp would happy tell you about one extreme example. His uncontrolled cravings led him to leave the mother of his child and fall into the arms of Amber Heard.  We know how far sideways that went.

This is nothing to do with uncontrolled cravings, this is to do with bad partner choice. Plenty of male celebrities do not have this problem and enjoy the life of abundant sex and partying that they lead, then transcend it at some point. Take Russel Brand for example. Follow the positive examples and not the negative ones

It's much easier to control your desires if you've lived them out healthily already. Beating them though raw self-control is not very effective and leads to coping, defence mechanisms, repression and inceldom. In fact, the only way to truly exercise self-control in this matter is to have access to tons of sex and reject it. That is true self-control. If you can't even get laid, what are you exercising self-control over in the first place??

Edited November 25, 2021 by something_else

[Terell Kirby]

19 hours ago, Jacquelope said:

There are worse things for a man than not getting laid

This is laughable haha .. says no man on this Earth that wasn’t bullshitting himself.

Being a virgin for a man is one of the most painful experiences he can go through. Obtaining sexual abundance is one of our main drivers in pursuing success and achievement.

You have to embrace this and actively invest in this aspect of life before you can transcend it. To not do this is putting the cart before the horse in personal / spiritual development as a man.

It helps to refer to the Spiral dynamics model, and deeply study stage Orange within the model.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[Shin]

On 23/11/2021 at 5:44 AM, Raptorsin7 said:

Lol why do you believe this true?

If a woman is high quality don't you believe she would not be attracted to scum bags?

She wouldn't but she also wouldn't be attracted to a guy who didn't embody the qualities that make the scumbag attractive either.

Those qualities are necessary, you just embody them and display them in a more refined, less materialistic, lustful way.
The core qualities stay the same though, like exactly the same.

Being serious with a girl you just met about relationship is the same as a girl farting and laughing like a pig in front of you ?

Edited November 27, 2021 by Shin

[Jacquelope]

On 11/25/2021 at 6:49 AM, something_else said:

You can blow this out of the water by asking yourself if you would still have this mindset if you had an abundance of attractive women wanting to have sex with you. If that were the case, you would not have this position. You only hold this position because you believe or feel women are scarce and so you need coping mechanisms to deal with this fact[/quote]

I've been on both sides of those train tracks so no you can't blow this out of the water that way. And what is this obsession with hot babes anyway? Doesn't anyone around here value other traits in a woman besides looks? That's where men play themselves so easily, if she's a hot babe then they'll sink so low as to buy her bath water. Then men wonder why women play them so easily and so brutally - half the answer is staring at them right there in the mirror.

This "I gotta get laid, I don't want to die a virgin" mentality is literally exactly how men wind up at the highest risk of dying as lonely virgins. This is a paradox that apparently a lot of guys don't understand. Name me one woman on Earth who has ever had this kind of desperate mindset. I don't think anyone can, and this is why so many (even if not all) women have an abundance of male attention: they understand the law of supply and demand, and keep their offering of supply under control. We men hand out offers of dick like candy, devaluing it to nothing. And then we wonder why so many men are sexless.

As for what's worse than being rejected? Again, I offer you the example of what happened to Johnny Depp. You can manage to get laid and then have your life blown to smithereens. "At least I got laid" will be cold comfort then. That happens when you choose the wrong woman to have sex with - a far higher risk when you just "gotta get laid". This is how men fall prey to cuckolding, domestic abuse, paternity fraud, and a number of other horror shows that can also come with getting laid. Then you wind up going MGTOW/Red Pill or some other equally crazy nonsense... all because you let your dick lead you instead of your brain.

Just like women know how to filter men and chase the highest quality men, we need to filter women and chase only the highest quality women. Value sex just the same way that women do, and we will actually get laid more often, but without fucking at random like mindless dogs.

On 11/26/2021 at 1:00 AM, Shin said:

Being serious with a girl you just met about relationship is the same as a girl farting and laughing like a pig in front of you ?

???

My wife met me on Match.com. We were serious about a relationship from the get-go. We've been married about 20 years now with four kids. You're talking about random hookups, and too much of that is hazardous for one's marital satisfaction and has already been shown out by another poster (using a chart, no less) as such.

Maybe what's intentionally being ignored here is something I've repeatedly said: it's not about having no casual sex, it's about dialing down its importance and pursuing it less. This culture is too obsessed with hooking up and look at the shit show it has caused. We're hopelessly unbalanced and addicted to the sexual equivalent of junk food. A take-out hamburger once in a while is fine but a diet based on it... well, we all did see that "diet of McDonalds" video, right?

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Jacquelope

[Shin]

2 hours ago, Jacquelope said:

My wife met me on Match.com. We were serious about a relationship from the get-go. We've been married about 20 years now with four kids. You're talking about random hookups, and too much of that is hazardous for one's marital satisfaction and has already been shown out by another poster (using a chart, no less) as such.

Maybe what's intentionally being ignored here is something I've repeatedly said: it's not about having no casual sex, it's about dialing down its importance and pursuing it less. This culture is too obsessed with hooking up and look at the shit show it has caused. We're hopelessly unbalanced and addicted to the sexual equivalent of junk food. A take-out hamburger once in a while is fine but a diet based on it... well, we all did see that "diet of McDonalds" video, right?

 

You can't compare how most people met with a serious dating app.

People can fantasize about the other person way too easily there, plus you don't have several weeks or months to build up a connection in real life.

[Leo Gura]

My bro got married off OkCupid. So it is possible.

[mmKay]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

My bro got married off OkCupid. So it is possible.

My brother got laid off playing World of Warcraft. They met in Durotar. 

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, mmKay said:

My brother got laid off playing World of Warcraft. They met in Durotar. 

Gross

[Tech36363]

@Raze there is nothing such as high quality women , there are women . You need to be sorted to make them "high quality" 

@Leo Gura i love leo there is no one like him on youtube and i woudnt be where i am because of him 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Tech36363
typo

[How to be wise]

I remember in a previous job I had, when my boss found out I was single, he tried to set me up with another employee. It turns out that employee liked me, but I was already planning on quitting the job. Guys remember, your boss can get you laid!

[Jacquelope]

8 hours ago, Shin said:

You can't compare how most people met with a serious dating app.

People can fantasize about the other person way too easily there, plus you don't have several weeks or months to build up a connection in real life.

Actually.....

4 hours ago, Tech36363 said:

@Raze there is nothing such as high quality women , there are women . You need to be sorted to make them "high quality" 

@Leo Gura i love leo there is no one like him on youtube and i woudnt be where i am because of him 

LOL someone else beat me to it.

I think that high quality women exist, at least in terms of moral character. For instance if she's not a game player or a foodie caller then she is at least higher quality than women who are. What is scary is there is also a severe uptick of couples meeting in.... bars and restaurants? Only a tiny minority of elite men ever have a chance at making it there.

[something_else]

6 minutes ago, Jacquelope said:

Only a tiny minority of elite men ever have a chance at making it there.

Yea I'd say 27.5% is definitely a tiny majority 

[Jacquelope]

3 hours ago, something_else said:

Yea I'd say 27.5% is definitely a tiny majority 

Consider me confused by that statistic. Bars and nightclubs aren't even venues for couples to meet, they're for hookups, one night stands, that kind of thing. Only the best looking men succeed there. So what has changed? Are women lowering their standards? What's going on?

[zazen]

Leo's recent burning through karma video has my mind really thinking. Isn't the process of burning through sexual karma by dating and sleeping with people at those peoples / societies expense? 

Doesn't it leave and cause emotional baggage / trauma / collateral damage ?

For people struggling with dating this thinking isn't whats needed but for people who are having some success meeting new people intimately or too much success even, it begs the question of whats morally right and how much responsibility we have for others feelings and for the collective. Not as a cop out or rationalising why we suck at dating but as a genuine care for not wanting to hurt others. Knowing people are bound to get hurt when we involve intimacy causes hesitancy in wanting to date around casually to even get to the point of relationship but in 2021 thats the way people in general are getting into relationships, through sleeping around first. The cart and the horse are reversed. 

 

Could we rationalise to ourselves that it's part of their growth process  to go through heart break and come out stronger, or better them selves..maybe just say its evolutionary pressure for them to strengthen themselves? Even if we are honest and ethical hearts are bound to ache in the dating process and for the conscious aware some of us can double think before we act, or put others feelings before our lower desires. Then again, if we are more actualised than the average person wouldn't those people we sleep with and maybe stay friends with benefit from knowing us in this life time and maybe us being a catalyst of inspiration to develop themselves. The mind can rationalise in many ways...Ram Dass has said who are we to take away another persons suffering, that is their path. Elsewhere he said he stopped getting involved sexually as to not hurt and cause suffering also.

 

Just a thought experiment: could we see dating and even sleeping around  as a higher consciousness activity in that knowing people only change when they have emotional leverage or pain, by being that emotional leverage for someone or multiple people your sleeping with, and stating your standards of what you look for in a partner, you help raise / actualise them selves in order to be with you or win you over into a exclusive relationship. Even if you don't accept being exclusive they would have bettered themselves in the process and for their own life / future relationship anyway..

Edited November 30, 2021 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

@zazen All dating comes with some collateral damage. The solution is to grow a thicker skin.

[something_else]

On 28/11/2021 at 1:43 AM, Jacquelope said:

Consider me confused by that statistic. Bars and nightclubs aren't even venues for couples to meet, they're for hookups, one night stands, that kind of thing. Only the best looking men succeed there. So what has changed? Are women lowering their standards? What's going on?

I read this as "I'm confused by the stats but I don't want to give up my existing notions about bars and nightclubs"

Tons of couples meet in bars and nightclubs. My parents met in a nightclub and married each other lol

Anywhere you have large numbers of men and women mixing together are places where couples meet. Yea these places are heavy on the hookup side, but it's not like they're only for hookups. And things that start out casual can lead to relationships as well

Yea, it's probably the confident and the good looking who thrive in that environment but it's clearly not just a tiny majority of elite men. It's at least 27.5% lol. The average dude has good enough social skills to go to a nightclub with friends and chat up girls. If he does that enough one of them will fall for him

All the game talk here is usually for dudes who are socially fucked in some way or another and need some bootstrapping to fix that