Casual sex vs relationships - your opinions?

[Jacquelope]

I think that the endless pursuit of casual sex is damaging to men's psyches and is only encouraging cruelty toward men in the dating scene.

Following up on my post about male thirst, it seems to me that the pursuit of casual sex ultimately clouds a man's mind and cripples his ability to properly vet women for essential moral qualities. I see it as a severe impairment to a man's psychological development and especially to his ability to achieve his full potential in life, even if certain ideologies say chasing sex is something that drives him to self-improve. My experience says LTR sex can either deteriorate (dead bedroom) or vastly outshine one night stands depending on how the couple approaches things. With ONS though you simply can't get to know your partner and develop intimacy on any deep level, which presents hard limits on how good the sex can be.

There's also another problem - women face so many male candidates for sex that they are encouraged to treat them the way an employer treats floods of job applicants. Just like employers use cruel algorithms that do things like weed out the unemployed, those with bad credit or older applicants, women with so many men vying for a spot in their bed will do the same thing in the sexual market. If men had floods of women chasing them they'd do the same thing: women aren't different from men in this regard. We can clearly see the toxic effect this sexual market problem (which I call the algorithm effect) has had on men's psyche.

This all leads me to the conclusion that simply "getting laid" shouldn't be the paradigm that governs men's thinking, in my opinion. I believe that we should be looking more toward intimate relationships and sex within that context. We should be dialing down on the casual sex and trying to find a soul mate, or at least the "happily for the long term" if "happily ever after" doesn't seem possible. The "it's a man's imperative to spread his seed" seems just too much of a copout and it's making life far harder on most men than life would be after abandoning that mindset. Choosing a LTR mindset over the one night stand (ONS) mindset combined with a focus on a woman's moral character, lifestyle compatibility and the like, would give a man more focus and the incentive to set (and respect) proper boundaries, and may even some self awareness to see what he can contribute to the relationship.

Summary: "getting laid" should never be the goal of a man. Long term intimacy and deep connection with one high-quality woman should take its place as the male imperative.

Thoughts?

[Gili Trawangan]

First thought is that one-size-fits-all is potentially more damaging.

Why can't there be both? There are men who look for and thrive on long-term relationships. There are those who seek casual sex. And those who seek solitude. Why shouldn't people just do what they're drawn to? As long as they're not hurting anyone.

What we tend to see in the world is diversity. And it's all the more fun because of it.

[something_else]

I'd say the problem is you're not gonna learn what you really like in a long term relationship unless you have tons of experience with girls and it's hard to get that if you only have one to three serious long term relationships over the course of your life like would be traditional.

You want a mix of flings, casual relationships and serious committed relationships over the course of your life so you can actually work out what you want from a relationship when you do decide to settle down a bit

17 minutes ago, Jacquelope said:

Long term intimacy and deep connection with one high-quality woman should take its place as the male imperative

Another problem is that most attractive girls are gonna want guys who have some sexual experience, because they'll almost certainly have been with guys who know what they're doing before you. And if you're some virgin dude or someone who's only had sex a handful of times you're not gonna be a particularly appealing option

Edited November 23, 2021 by something_else

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Jacquelope said:

"getting laid" should never be the goal of a man. Long term intimacy and deep connection with one high-quality woman should take its place as the male imperative.

The problem here is, if you set the boyfriend frame she is likely to not get attracted to you and therefore you will lose your "high-quality" woman to a scummy player who doesn't give a shit about her. And yes, she will sleep with him instead of you because he is detached and fun while you are needy and serious.

If you see an awesome girl, the more you lead with the BF frame the more she will get repelled.

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem here is, if you set the boyfriend frame she is likely to not get attracted to you and therefore you will lose your "high-quality" woman to a scummy player who doesn't give a shit about her. And yes, she will sleep with him instead of you because he is detached and fun while you are needy and serious.

Lol why do you believe this true?

If a woman is high quality don't you believe she would not be attracted to scum bags?

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Raptorsin7 said:

If a woman is high quality don't you believe she would not be attracted to scum bags?

Lol

Your sweet little angel is sucking some dude's dick in the car while you are daydreaming of being her BF.

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

Isn't it part of the definition of high quality that she would have the sense to not get involved with scumbags?

"Hey I have 6 children with 6 different woman, you want to be my 7th "- Scumbag

"Omg yeah, I would love to do that. I just can't resist"- High quality woman

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Isn't it part of the definition of high quality that she would have the sense to not get involved with scumbags?

I'm sure some girls can pull that off, but I wouldn't count on it.

Again, she is not having sex for logical reasons. She is not sitting there calculating which guy is most suitable for her long-term health and well-being.

If your strategy is to get into a girl's pants using logical objective facts about yourself, you're going to be extremely disappointed with your results.

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm sure some girls can pull that off, but I wouldn't count on it.

Again, she is not having sex for logical reasons. She is not sitting there calculating which guy is most suitable for her long-term health and well-being.

So most "high quality woman" don't have the sense to avoid my scumbag example?

[Leo Gura]

@Raptorsin7 Go try it. Go attract your "high quality" girl.

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Raptorsin7 Go try it. Go attract your "high quality" girl.

I'm asking what you believe

So most "high quality woman" don't have the sense to avoid my scumbag example?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Jacquelope]

4 hours ago, something_else said:

I'd say the problem is you're not gonna learn what you really like in a long term relationship unless you have tons of experience with girls and it's hard to get that if you only have one to three serious long term relationships over the course of your life like would be traditional.

You want a mix of flings, casual relationships and serious committed relationships over the course of your life so you can actually work out what you want from a relationship when you do decide to settle down a bit

Another problem is that most attractive girls are gonna want guys who have some sexual experience, because they'll almost certainly have been with guys who know what they're doing before you. And if you're some virgin dude or someone who's only had sex a handful of times you're not gonna be a particularly appealing option

A mix would be fine, it would be a far cry from the absolute obsession that is gripping the men of today.

 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem here is, if you set the boyfriend frame she is likely to not get attracted to you and therefore you will lose your "high-quality" woman to a scummy player who doesn't give a shit about her. And yes, she will sleep with him instead of you because he is detached and fun while you are needy and serious.

If you see an awesome girl, the more you lead with the BF frame the more she will get repelled.

In my opinion if she gets repelled by the BF frame after taking the time to get to know her and all that? She's not awesome. Time to move on to another woman. Sometimes a man has to re-think what kind of woman he's looking for. JMHO.

 

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Isn't it part of the definition of high quality that she would have the sense to not get involved with scumbags?

"Hey I have 6 children with 6 different woman, you want to be my 7th "- Scumbag

"Omg yeah, I would love to do that. I just can't resist"- High quality woman

ROTFLMAO!!!

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

Your sweet little angel is sucking some dude's dick in the car while you are daydreaming of being her BF.

We shouldn't be getting into the trap of thinking all women are like that. If they are, wouldn't it be logical to suspect we're choosing the wrong women and we should look at who we're chasing?

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm sure some girls can pull that off, but I wouldn't count on it.

Again, she is not having sex for logical reasons. She is not sitting there calculating which guy is most suitable for her long-term health and well-being.

If your strategy is to get into a girl's pants using logical objective facts about yourself, you're going to be extremely disappointed with your results.

My wife very much was calculating that, judging by the way she vetted me. I think the problem is many men don't even care to study her long enough to know if she is like that. I doubt my wife is the only woman like that.

 

[Thunder Kiss]

22 minutes ago, Jacquelope said:

We shouldn't be getting into the trap of thinking all women are like that. If they are, wouldn't it be logical to suspect we're choosing the wrong women and we should look at who we're chasing?

Thankyou for saying this. It’s quite sad when people here hold this view that women would cheat with a scumbag because she’s just a dumb unconscious chick running solely on emotions.
 

—-
 

Personally I don’t think what you are saying is a huge problem.  Yes it’s a very popular dynamic in pickup community and the party scene.  Within the pickup community and because that is what we see written here on this forum so much, that doesn’t mean that everyone is like this or that this is how it is. 
There are plenty of men out there who aren’t interested in pickup or one night stands.  There has always been players and womanisers throughout history.  Only difference is that now it’s more documented online.  If anything I think more men are waking up and maturing, they are dealing with their intimacy issues and growing. 

It’s also not true that women receive floods of candidates.  Yes maybe if you are thinking of an Instagram influencer or models then yes they probably get a lot of spam guys pestering them.  But seriously this is not the real world.. most girls aren’t getting that many guys hitting on them. And that doesn’t mean they are ugly low value girls, they are just not in the party scene so don’t get noticed as much. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Thunder Kiss

[Jacob Morres]

I think the pursuit is right for some, wrong for others. Me personally, it's right 1-2%, wrong 98% lol. I think im bored of casual sex unless the girl is super special 

[somegirl]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, she is not having sex for logical reasons. She is not sitting there calculating which guy is most suitable for her long-term health and well-being.

So... I understand what you point to, but really, some girls DO consider long term consequences of being involved with scumbag.

Yes, since it is rare to find a guy who has an amazing game and is crazy seductive, he is almost irresistible once a girl comes across him, but I would suggest that some girls do think of their long term health and wellbeing. And they do set bounders/set ultimatums. Maybe even more so after they have already been burnt before. 

[Mz Hyde]

@Leo Gura Are you suggesting that every guy who wants serious relationship is needy? If so, why?

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, somegirl said:

So... I understand what you point to, but really, some girls DO consider long term consequences of being involved with scumbag.

Yes, some do.

The issue is that not enough do to make it an effective dating strategy from a guy's POV to cater to them.

It's like opening an organic fast food joint. It will probably go out of business even though it will have a few fans.

Keep in mind that the girls on this forum are going to be way above-average in consciousness.

6 minutes ago, Mz Hyde said:

@Leo Gura Are you suggesting that every guy who wants serious relationship is needy? If so, why?

No

But a guy's neediness tends to be related to his lack of getting sex.

If you struggle to get laid then you will probably get needy about that one great girl you happen to accidentally meet and she will run away from you.

[zazen]

@Jacquelope As Leo mentioned to even get that relationship you need experience and to be confident enough which comes from abundance and experience, and be able to attract that 'one' girl. Also, having social proof and playerish in the beginning doesn't hurt. Now days because women don't need men for survival, they are looking for the sexy genes  or alpha traits in men which would be more the playerish type of guy, hence coming across too boyfriendish at the start isn't a priorty for women now.

 

It's just where most of the culture is now day in general, of course not every girl is like this although instinctually she would react to that type of a guy but her consciousness/cultural upbringing would blunt that response and she wouldn't act on it, not anymore. In the past more boyfriendish chivalrous nice guy traits were valued because people wouldn't care for sleeping around casually but for getting into stable relationships. The way people met was through courting each other (without sex) until they met someone they matched with, then get into a serious relationship in which sexually things happened or waited and usually lead to marriage. Now, people get to know each other whilst having sex which on a biological level bonds people and blinds them to each others compatibilities. People who shouldn't be together end up being together and it not working out down the line, or they know and do end things once they come to their senses and the honeymoon period fades but this causes a lot of heartbreak. In the past people would experience maybe 2-3 heartbreaks over a lifetime, not we experience this by our mid 20's or sooner which traumatises us, causes bitterness baggage and distrust between the genders. It's fucked up. 

 

If everyone was to follow the casual dating approach to find the perfect one and find what we like, doesn't that process ruin the very society of people you want to have that relationship in? Meaning, the collateral and emotional damage casual dating causes, ruins our ability to bond and be happy in future relationships due to baggage, becoming embittered of the opposite gender. Its a weird paradox I can't get my head around and don't know what the future looks like for modern relationships, but it just doesn't seem good. 

 

 

[Mz Hyde]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, some do.

The issue is that not enough do to make it an effective dating strategy from a guy's POV to cater to them.

It's like opening organic fast food joint. It will probably go out of business even though it will have a few fans.

Shouldn't dating strategies be adjusted to kind of girl guy want? If a guy wants a serious relationship, with the assumption that he is looking for a high quality girl for that (and IMO such a girl should consider long term consequences), I guess he should set the game to attract that kind of girls. Unlike that business you mentioned, where you need a lot of customers for it to work, for relationship you need only one.

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, Jacquelope said:

 

My wife very much was calculating that, judging by the way she vetted me. I think the problem is many men don't even care to study her long enough to know if she is like that. I doubt my wife is the only woman like that.

 

leo was talking about the man not the woman, he is saying get out of your head and stop being so logical if you want to make an impact, she wants the nonchalant fun guy over the needy nerdy