Is inner game everything? And are these claims realistic?

[subterfuge]

Was reading someone on the seduction sub on reddit who claims to be nearly 40, not good looking, but pulls insta models and F1 grid girls and stuff every night.

 

He advocates 'john anthony' in terms of game who I have looked at briefly. But I fail to really see any 'game' there. (although he claims that's because game isn't about lines and techniques but about 'operant conditioning' and believing you are a 10/10)

 

So the guy on reddit for example answered my question about how to hit on girls who are working and how to attract them, but he said 'you're job isn't to 'attract' them. You're job is to arrange a time to have sex with them''.

 

He then gave me his script, which is: You need to ask for small steps in compliance not just hit her with it like a club, "you're hot! lets go out!!" One of my fav. lines to open service workers is, "You seem like the lazy one... do they just let you keep your job cuz you look like that??" And then the next sentence is "So what've you got going on today after this?" And you proceed to find out her logistics - what time she gets off work and if she's busy later. Once you figure that you, you can go into the date invite in the form of: "Do you like X activity?" -> yes -> "okay cool, we should do X activity [after work or sometime soon], sound good?" then once she agrees to that you can nail down the specifics.

So I see very little in the way of  'game' there (e.g if you are not her type I don't see how that would 'work') but he said i'm wrong and that it works if you believe you are a 10/10. He said he believes he can bang ANY girl if she is straight.

 

On the topic of attraction, he says:

What you need to understand is that attraction is basically an irrelevant footnote. Like I'm not trying to be mean, but if you're still thinking about attraction, you're at a beginner/low-intermediate level. That's not the difficulty of pickup at all. It's very easy to get with basically every straight woman who is open to being attracted by anybody. I've never had a hard blowout in which my wing was able to open the set.

Step 1 is assuming attraction (so here's probably where you're defeating yourself - if you don't believe every girl is already into you, then she likely won't be). I'm a 10, and the only reason I'm talking to her is to find out when she's free to hook up. Everything I say and do comes from that frame, and many girls will just immediately pick up that frame and accept it.

The only thing you need to consider from there is compliance or non-compliance. If the girl complies, then she's rewarded (with physical/verbal/logistical escalation). If she doesn't comply, then she's punished (with an IoD - Mystery would've called this a neg), and you vibe/keep talking. I use a basic structure of question -> she answers -> I tell a DHV story feeding off her answer which hopefully hooks her into the conversation. The most important part (which most guys don't do) is to sexualize the conversation frequently. That creates the right emotional energy to make her want to continue the interaction. So then the next time you go for a compliance move, she's more likely to comply.

He was then asked:

''Is your theory that if you are ugly and she's not attracted (assuming you believe it's posisble that a girl can find a guy ugly or maybe you're from the school of thought that girls don't even know or care what good looking is) you just need to act/believe (assume) that she IS attracted and then she will be?''

It isn't my theory. It's what I experience everyday of my life, but yes. Most women will just fall into your frame if it's strong enough. I've had women I cold approached turn red and apologize for not remembering my name because she thinks I'm a guy she must've slept with and forgot based on the way I'm treating her.

 

Does anyone here run the same 'game'? (if you can call it that)

 

I've tried his script a few times recently on girls in restaurants, but they just say i'm not her type, although he tells me girls do't have a type and arent' attracted by looks etc. And that attraction doesn't matter anyway. Only compliance (which is why he uses his 'compliance method' based on 'operant conditioning') in order to bang any girl he wants

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by subterfuge

[Lyubov]

didn't this john anthony guy have sexual assault charges brought against him before? I remember it was mentioned here before. 

[Federico del pueblo]

Inner game is huge but to say that it's only about inner game is a bit off imo.

Because the question is, if you haven't been super good with girls from the beginning, where is your amazing inner game supposed to come from???!!!

You can work on your insecurities to some degree even before doing game. Your negative beliefs and so on. But you'll still need to develop an understanding of what seduction looks like, i.e. understanding the outer game.

In practice you will build your inner game over time, by doing inner work and outer work simultaneously, you go out and correctly apply the principles and techniques and hopefully gain positive reference experiences. These positive experiences encourage you to do the successful behaviour again, which will lead to more positive experiences, which will in turn increase your confidence again (= better inner game).

After many positive reference experiences you will then have changed certain beliefs, or at least you are enabled to do so. E.g. you can start to think "It seems like hot girls often like me" and you will know this statement to be true due to your past experiences.

Your improved beliefs about your attractiveness will make it easier and easier to do correct outer game behaviours, because if you believe that your hot you're gonna act as though you're hot. When you act as though you're hot around attractive girls and then also maintain your frame when you're being challenged by the girls ("shit tests"), then the girls will subconsciously assume that you must be good with girls in general (because otherwise you wouldn't be able to behave like this), which usually creates attraction.

In short: If you look like you're getting laid, then you're gonna get laid!

 

P.S.: From what I've seen from John Anthony on YouTube he seems like a very toxic guy, his whole marketing strategy is to talk shit about other coaches, that's really a red flag for me.

[Preety_India]

If the guy Really has sexual assault charges against him, you should totally avoid this. 

 

OK have a read. 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/the-murky-world-of-pickup-artists-and-how-they-navigate-consent

Lmao he is even considered a scam on this reddit 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/lsewc0/john_anthony_lifestyle_scam_and_worst_pua_in_the/

Edited November 22, 2021 by Preety_India

[something_else]

This is the kinda pickup shit you should avoid

This is the toxic part of it

The way he talks/writes and the fact he has pending sexual assault charges tells you everything you need to know

[subterfuge]

Just to be clear, the guy i'm talking about on reddit who I have quoted isn't john anthony as far as I know (although he seems to think john is a pickup God although the infield i've seen of john anthony makes him look like a buffoon with zero 'game', although he claims like 2500 lays!)

 

I'm asking about the reddit guy and his posts and theory. Maybe best to Forget about John Anthony lol

Edited November 22, 2021 by subterfuge

[Federico del pueblo]

1 minute ago, subterfuge said:

Just to be clear, the guy i'm talking about on reddit who I have quoted isn't john anthony as far as I know (although he seems to think john is a pickup God)

 

I'm asking about the reddit guy and his posts and theory. Maybe best to Forget about John Anthony lol

Just read my post, that's all you need to know really. This other stuff is overcomplicated and partially toxic ("then she gets punished" lol).

Watch Leo's latest series on getting laid and if you want to still get more technical I'd recommend Todd V dating.

[subterfuge]

28 minutes ago, Federico del pueblo said:

Because the question is, if you haven't been super good with girls from the beginning, where is your amazing inner game supposed to come from???!!!

yes, that was my first question tbh lol

 

Ordinarily, i'd say (as you suggest) that certain outergame could help you along, but this person seems to think that outergame doesn't build attraction (he hates people like Todd Valentine who use pushpull lines for example) and he also says attraction isn't important anyway! Just compliance. And you just need to babystep comliance a tiny bit at a time all teh way to sex as per his theory. 

 

his theory seems to be a mixture of believing you are a 10/10 and every girl wants you badly (inner game) combined with SOME outergame (operant conditioning. Punish her lack of comliance with a neg or solve her lack of compliance with the correct objection handling line)

 

I just feel if he was able to do what he claims he can do (basically bang any girl he wants despite being old and not good looking), he'd be richer than Bill Gates lol

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by subterfuge

[something_else]

1 minute ago, Federico del pueblo said:

("then she gets punished" lol).

Yea this is what gives away how toxic the dude is. If he said something like 'tease her a little bit' then that's just funny and playful and everyone enjoys it, when you start talking about punishing girls for not adhering to your frame then you've gone off the pickup deep end

[subterfuge]

23 minutes ago, something_else said:

Yea this is what gives away how toxic the dude is. If he said something like 'tease her a little bit' then that's just funny and playful and everyone enjoys it, when you start talking about punishing girls for not adhering to your frame then you've gone off the pickup deep end

Yep, I agree it's toxic. (although when he says 'neg' he said it's more a tease as you say)

 

I guess what i'm asking though is does it actually work!!? (allowing you to sleep with any girl basically. Even if you're not her type)

In my experience it certainly doesn't. Negs and all that stuff never work like in the books for me (unless it's on a girl who thinks i'm hot). If she's not attracted to me, she doesn't care about being 'punished' lol. His theory seems whack to me but maybe some here agree with him

 

But maybe it's because I don't believe i'm a 10/10 like he does? (at least that would be his answer i'm sure)

Edited November 23, 2021 by subterfuge

[Leo Gura]

The thing is, compliance and attraction are going to be connected. If she's not attracted she's not going to comply enough.

Of course going for compliance very early on is a good way to feel girls out and quickly screen who is down or not.

Of course assuming attraction helps. But many girls will simply not be attracted or compliant with you.

Logistics is a huge part of outer game of course, and guys who get laid a lot are extremely good at handling logistics and very strong at leading.

[subterfuge]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The thing is, compliance and attraction are going to be connected. If she's not attracted she's not going to comply enough.

Of course going for compliance very early on is a good way to feel girls out and quickly screen who is down or not.

Of course assuming attraction helps. But many girls will simply not be attracted or compliant with you.

Logistics is a huge part of outer game of course, and guys who get laid a lot are extremely good at handling logistics and very strong at leading.

 

'The thing is, compliance and attraction are going to be connected. If she's not attracted she's not going to comply enough'

 

- That's exactly my thoughts. But he tells me i'm wrong. He says attraction is irrelevant (although he also claims it's teh EASIEST thing in the wolrd to get, making it a non issue either way)

[Federico del pueblo]

22 minutes ago, subterfuge said:

 

'The thing is, compliance and attraction are going to be connected. If she's not attracted she's not going to comply enough'

 

- That's exactly my thoughts. But he tells me i'm wrong. He says attraction is irrelevant (although he also claims it's teh EASIEST thing in the wolrd to get, making it a non issue either way)

Honestly I think this dude is just plain wrong.

Why would you want to do something for someone if you don't even like him a little bit?

Imagine a girl you find completely unattractive says "pls hold my drink for a second" before you have even spoken to her. Even if you do hold her drink, you are then not gonna also buy her a drink and then drive her home in her car and then eventually have sex with her just because you complied to her in the beginning. 

Attraction creates a level of willingness to comply and a willingness to qualify. Without attraction no compliance is gonna happen IMO.

Outer game definitely does build value, but if your delivery completely sucks, then it won't. The worse your inner game is the more likely your outer game delivery will be off, because you're not believing in what you're saying and seem incongruent as a consequence. 

That's what makes game hard.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Federico del pueblo
Misspelled

[Leo Gura]

Well, girls are attracted to assertiveness and leadership, so simply by being very strong at leading her you may flip on her attraction when otherwise she would have been cold.

But hey, test it out and see what works. This is not something to philosophize about. Test it emprically.

[Federico del pueblo]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, girls are attracted to assertiveness and leadership, so simply by being very strong at leading her you may flip on her attraction when otherwise she would have been cold.

I agree, but still assertiveness and leadership must be calibrated and happening within a context where they make sense, and they tend to make more sense when at least a little bit of attraction has already been established. 

Otherwise I would just walk around and say things like "Hey girl, undress yourself NOW!!!"  "Hey you, suck my D$#!" and it would work because I'm being so assertive.

 

But yeah, one must test these things to know for sure.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Federico del pueblo said:

Otherwise I would just walk around and say things like "Hey girl, undress yourself NOW!!!"  "Hey you, suck my D$#!" and it would work because I'm being so assertive.

Obviously that won't work because you're asking for too much compliance too quickly.

But what can work is: "Hey, let's go to my friend's afterparty. It will be fun and you can leave whenever you want. It's only 2 blocks away. Come with me. We'll play beer pong. It's better than here."

Girls are extremely social. So if you design easy social scenarios they are very likely to go along and never question it. And along the way they get to know you and get attracted.

[Federico del pueblo]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obvious that won't work.

But what can work is: "Hey, let's go to my friend's afterparty. It will be fun and you can leave whenever you want. It's only 2 blocks away."

I totally agree. 

But those are things that would be a completely normal part of "conventional game".

Though in regards to the original questions of the OP:

I don't see a necessity to have a game style that is mostly centered around creating compliance as the main strategy. 

"Normal game" works well when done correctly and there is enough space in it to include some compliance, so I don't think the weel has to be reinvented.

But anyway, what do I know...

Edited November 23, 2021 by Federico del pueblo

[Lyubov]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

I

https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/lsewc0/john_anthony_lifestyle_scam_and_worst_pua_in_the/

Holy crap, I just looked through that thread and then went down a bit of a rabbit hole looking at that subreddit. What a bunch of clowns. Makes me appreciate the discourse here about dating way more. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Federico del pueblo said:

I don't see a necessity to have a game style that is mostly centered around creating compliance as the main strategy. 

One of my wings has been doing game for 10+ years and slept with 500+ girls.

He says compliance ladder game can be so effective it can be it's own style of game. Personally he doesn't use it that much.

Do I recommend you adopt that as your sole strategy? No.

Will it get you laid a lot? Probably.

You have to be extremely pushy for that compliance ladder to work. And still, girls will give you plenty of last minute resistance because you're basically herding them along down your sex funnel without building much connection. Yes, you can get results by being extremely persistent and manipulative. I would equate it with high pressure sales tactics. Which is why John Anthony has a rape charge. His style of game is extremely pushy and sociopathic. I don't want you guys going down that road.

But still, learning to lead is an important aspect of game.

[subterfuge]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, girls are attracted to assertiveness and leadership, so simply by being very strong at leading her you may flip on her attraction when otherwise she would have been cold.

But hey, test it out and see what works. This is not something to philosophize about. Test it emprically.

so you certainly seem to understand what this guy is telling me. Yes, his theory is that attraction is both irellevant and also super easy to get. Now you just keep asking for small comliance steps all the way to to sex. And you 'solve' the issue each time she rejects comliance (either with a tease or with some sort of logical objection handling line such as 'I have to be up early too' if she says she can't come back because she was work in the morning)

 

But I have been testing it though ,and as expected, girls will fail to comply, assuming i'm not her type, as soon as teh compliance test is anything that could be sexual. No matter how small I increase each compliance test there is a 'line' where, if i'm not her type, she won't comply. But he says that's now how it works and he can bang 10/10 models every night etc which is what I want to do!. lol.  But maybe it 'works' for him because he's much better looking than me? I don't know. Although he of course says he's not and that girls do'nt care about looks anyway. Guess  it's hard to test stuff like this. My really handsome wingman can (and does) get laid being ridiculously direct so you could say his style works, but for most guys it's suicide lol

 

Is your friend really good looking? Sounds like his results are better than any PUA i've ever read about or on youtube. And this is using the same compliance method?

7 hours ago, Federico del pueblo said:

I totally agree. 

But those are things that would be a completely normal part of "conventional game".

Though in regards to the original questions of the OP:

I don't see a necessity to have a game style that is mostly centered around creating compliance as the main strategy. 

"Normal game" works well when done correctly and there is enough space in it to include some compliance, so I don't think the weel has to be reinvented.

But anyway, what do I know...

 

Yeah, I think in one post the guy claimed he could make girls eat dirt using this compliance system lol. I think there's a good chance he's in dreamland and I also am suspicious that he might in fact BE that 'john anthony' scammer guy.

 

I'm sure I could find much better examples of his posts where there's good discussion between him and people saying he's talking crap, but here's one of his posts. He goes by 'kpop'

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/datingadviceformen/comments/qyux8i/would_it_be_okay_if_i_do_this/hlol6ik/?context=3

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/datingadviceformen/comments/p9v3wy/do_girls_secretly_like_manipulative_men/hc7x5s2/?context=3

 

 

Maybe a thread where a few of us who are struggling can use his theory and compare results. Hopefully we can all be sleeping with the very hottest girls each night using the compliance method!

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by subterfuge