Meditation vs. ‘THIS’ (& The Dangers of Neo Advaita Explained)

[Salvijus]

@Consilience 

Fear of death is impossible when there's a clear recognition that there is no you. No exceptions.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[VeganAwake]

But there's no telling if a body is experiencing internal fear from an external appearance.

The same way a body couldn't prove externally that they are not experiencing internal fear.

So the whole discussion just falls apart at that point because it's simply unknowable. 

❤ 

[VeganAwake]

And it looks like VeganAwake just took the lead the score is nothing to nothing 

[Salvijus]

@VeganAwake there's no such thing as bodily fear. Have you ever seen a corpse in fear? No. Fear is always psychological.

[Inliytened1]

@Salvijus My take on fear of death after enlightenment:

There are many facets and stages to awakening..  But to try and summarize.-  after awakening it really comes down to attachment to form - how attached are you to your current form and what attachments do you still have in that form that you wish to retain... ...in other words on an Absolute level , you are conscious that you are Infinity/God - and thus cannot die.. yet after awakening (which is death or actual dissolution of the ego in which you become the Absolute) there is a return to the ego - where you regain a sense of self (despite being conscious it is imaginary - as there is no actual entity behind the eyes..  The entity or the you and any sense you have of you is being imagined by you as God) ..this in a nutshell really alleviates all suffering and fear...yet still, as a finite being one may still have attachments and do not yet wish to melt into permanent Infinite Love.   In fact as God you have designed this reality precisely so that you can experience separation, attachments, an egoic state within some particular form, and the desire to survive as that particular form. ..The thing that the awakened one is conscious of though is that as Infinity - you are a singularity - so all your attachments actually collapse into One and thus there is nothing you are really going to give up or lose...your wife, yourself (your body or form)  and your kids for example would all collapse into One.  All of reality would collapse into One - as there would not be any disctinions to be attached to - such as a family or a loved one.  It is Infinite Bliss and Love - complete and total.  But, the awakened may not yet wish or be ready  to let go of being finite and separate or distinct.  Its this attachment that will still result in fear - ..well, i should say the desire to survive, and fear is a  subconscious survival mechanism..it is there as a surivival mechanism to keep you alive and thereby retain your atatchments; the question is does the awakened one wish to stay alive or not......see, the difference is they have already died or had ego death before - so they are conscious that in the big picture its all the same and this fear is unfounded.  they have transcended it so to speak -  yet it may still occur due to the  very fact that you're still alive as a particular form - again because you have attachment or desire to retain  separation...do you see the circularity here   and it's fun in fact to dream   but when the time comes that there are no more attachments, even to yourself, then fear goes too because the desire to stay in the dream ends... thats truly when the dream ends and you will melt into Infinity.  Right now, though, If you were completely void of any fear you would very soon be dead.   

@Consilience nice post and I agree that I think sometimes people get lost in the concepts  and forget what spirituality is really about.   To me it's really about what's actual.  Meditation is a fantastic tool for collapsing all concepts into Being/Actuality/Truth.. You don't "know" reality..you ARE reality!    No self is paramount in becoming God because it is the direct consciousness that the self was an illusion that results in a shift in consciousness into becoming the Absolute.  I think if you talk to a lot of neo-advaitans they will not know even what i am referring to by becoming the Absolute/God/Infinity because it is all just conceptual for them or they think it's a really nice story but believe the concept that there is no self in the body.  Yes there actually is no self, but when you actually realize there is no self,  you die and become Infinity.  

 

[VeganAwake]

22 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@VeganAwake there's no such thing as bodily fear. Have you ever seen a corpse in fear? No. Fear is always psychological.

Have you ever witnessed someone that has a phobia of public speaking give a speech?

The body freezes up, the palms become sweaty, the stomach tightens up, the heart beats really fast, the speech can be slurred, monotone, quiet or excessively loud.

Psychological fear can absolutely impact the functioning of a body. 

What was being said is that this psychological fear can be hidden or masked in certain situations so there would be no way to know whether or not psychological fear was being experienced.

It could never be definitively proven or disproven.... so in that sense it's unknowable!

❤ 

 

 

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

@Consilience 

Fear of death is impossible when there's a clear recognition that there is no you. No exceptions.

 

I understand. What Im saying extremely subtle though -  fearlessness does not exclude fear. Until you understand that, you’re not going to understand what is being pointed towards. 

[Salvijus]

 @Consilience 

Fear is a form of resistence. And the end of resistence is the end of fear. Would you agree? 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

@Consilience If there's no resistence to anything at all, can there be any fear?

[Salvijus]

Fear and acceptance never go together. It's like resistence and acceptance never go together. In total acceptance there can't be a spot of resistence. Otherwise It's not a total acceptance, it's partial acceptance.

To say I accept my resistence is just mental cleverness. 

[VeganAwake]

Yes fear can still seem to arise but there is no one taking ownership and giving it energy any longer so it does not cause suffering. 

[Salvijus]

@VeganAwake fear is resistence. Resistence is suffering. If fear happens than it's because there is a lack of insight that you can't die and you don't even exist.

[silene]

54 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Have you ever witnessed someone that has a phobia of public speaking give a speech?

That person is me, I know the feelings intimately  It does have a strong physical element which is of course also mental. It doesn't appear to be wilful conscious resistance, but more like a reaction within my conditioning, which gives the situation the illusory appearance of a survival threat; triggering the fight/flight/freeze/fawn response. Almost an out of body experience. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by silene

[VeganAwake]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@VeganAwake fear is resistence. Resistence is suffering. If fear happens than it's because there is a lack of insight that you can't die and you don't even exist.

I just don't think you understand that the body-mind organism has a natural tendency to avoid things that will cause it physical pain or death.

It's super obvious when you look out in nature and watch the way animals live.

If the body was ignorant of this obvious fact it may very well jump into shark-infested water or walk off the edge of a cliff.

You show me even one completely fearless body-mind organism and I will show you a body-mind organism that is either ignorant of the inherent threat, or has some kind of serious physical and or mental disorder.(I would consider being brainwashed a disorder)

 

 

[VeganAwake]

19 minutes ago, silene said:

That person is me, I know the feelings intimately  It does have a strong physical element which is of course also mental. It doesn't appear to be wilful conscious resistance, but more like a reaction within my conditioning, which gives the situation the illusory appearance of a survival threat; triggering the fight/flight/freeze/fawn response. Almost an out of body experience. 

Totally ❤ 

[Salvijus]

21 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

I just don't think you understand that the body-mind organism has a natural tendency to avoid things that will cause it physical pain or death

Yeah. Body can heal itself and body can maintain itself and has a natural maintenace of itself. 

But fear in my opinion is 99% if not 100% psychological not bodily. Body is just a veichle an instrument a car that you drive. Car has no fear. Fear is in the psyche. Psyche controls the body. That's how I see it. Idk, if it's true.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

55 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@VeganAwake fear is resistence. Resistence is suffering. If fear happens than it's because there is a lack of insight that you can't die and you don't even exist.

Spot on. Also, even less so, insight is illusory, as is lack. Insight & lack are not found in sensation or perception, only as thought attachment.

@VeganAwake

Fear is the emotional experience of false identification. Humans, bodymind organism, animals, and tendency are all thoughts (and not perception or sensation). The projection of human emotion onto animals is justification & perpetuation of identification (“ego”). Animals don’t have egos, and do not experience emotions. 

No one can show you a ‘fearless bodymind organism’, because it’s a thought. You’re already directly experiencing it. The ignorance isn’t of facts or understanding, it’s ignore-ance of direct experience. The body can’t be ignorant, because body & ignorant are thoughts (parallel, not causation). 

Holding beliefs / not inspecting direct experience, doesn’t make anyone else anything at all. It’s the beliefs which seem to do that. Also, the evidence so to speak was already presented (monk peacefully on fire). 

[VeganAwake]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's how I see it. Idk, if it's true.

I don't either ? seems all interconnected and completely unavoidable!

❤ 

[Inliytened1]

@Salvijus i understand what you are saying my friend...that said even if you have transcended death, become enlightened, died and then came back, fear would still be more of a subconscious survival mechanism of the body,  (if a bear jumps at you from behind, wouldn't you still jump away?  This would be fear kicking in  subsconsciously to keep you alive.......now if you don't want to call that fear, and you want to call it an involuntary survival reaction, then fine...but i believe it will kick in, unless ofcourse you go into the forest consciously wanting to kill yourself, then you will not be allowing fear to arise via the subconscious mind - or if it did, it would come down to whether your conscious desire to kill yourself was greater than your survival mechanism....so perhaps more importantly your point is that once you realize directly that you can't really die, fear on a high level, not the involuntary level, (consciously speaking) , goes away, and therefore suffering goes away - so it is about understanding and transcending fear, not that fear as a raw survival mechanism itself goes away.  Suffering would be to become victim of fear because you actually believe that the death of "you" is final...but in fact that is not your true self....

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Animals don’t have egos, and do not experience emotions. 

 

Hey, hold on there buddy -  my husky is deeply enlightened, and gets very happy when i tell him we're going to the vet for shots.