Meditation vs. ‘THIS’ (& The Dangers of Neo Advaita Explained)

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Raptorsin7 

Haha lol ? 

Okey okey. No Im not trying to make anybody enlightened here. My main point is to give a solid logic proof explanation. That you're not enlightened until there's no longer a drop of fear in you.

This is relevant on this forum because everybody thinks he's enlightened because they understand intelectually that the self is not real. And I wanted to show that it is not enough to have this understanding. A real insight that comes from awareness is missing.

Hmmm.. is this answer okey?

 

Yeah that was very clear nice.

I always wondered if someone could be so loving that any conversation or interaction could enlighten someone

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Yeah that was very clear nice.

I always wondered if someone could be so loving that any conversation or interaction could enlighten someone

Maybe through transmition or smth ?  idk also.

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@VeganAwake This reminds me of when we used to go back & forth a few years ago on here, haha, time has flown since then! 

Hope you and your family are well! 

 

 

How about 'everyone' just focused on enjoying Christmas, instead of these good old Non-Duality wars. 

Its like when I argue with my friends about what footballer is better, no matter what he says to me, or I say to him, we're both usually set in our opinions and biases, so, if you know that, why not drop it and move onto something else lol? 

Maybe spend that time meditating  Or, do you need everyone to agree with your Non-Duality & method of awakening? I know I used to lol! 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

No. So wrong on so many levels. Illusion itself implies that it's not real. How can I be something that is not real? I can only believe it. But it will never be true.

It's like saying rope is a snake. No that is only a belief and illusion. The truth is that there is no snake. But it has to become experiencial. Than fear of snake is gone. It's not partialy gone, it's not weaker. It's gone 100%.

I don't know if you are talking about hypothetical concepts or real experience. you have arrived that point of not being the illusion? is this possible? . the reality is that the illusion is not false. it is real. you can't escape it. you can see through it, but you will remain the illusion, until you cease to be. It is not an idea, it is not false. the word "false" or "unreal" are silly, they are concepts. illusion is what it is. you can see full time that you are the limitless emptiness "dreaming" this illusion. but how to completely remove yourself from it? Just dying, erasing this illusion

[Salvijus]

@Breakingthewall

Aaa. Okey. I see your point. This is where I would disagree.

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the reality is that the illusion is not false. it is real. you can't escape it. you can see through it, but you will remain the illusion

This. I would say if you see the snake is not real, the snake is only a rope. Creation will not stop. Rope will not dissapear from existence. The rope will remain, only the belief that the rope is a snake will go away.

That's what is happening when awakening happens. Realization happens that there is no you. Existence still continues, but the fear of death is gone.

P.s. no I have not arrived at the ultimate disillusionment. Some degree of disilliusionment yes. But far from total. Do I look like a Buddha to you? ? I'd not be here shitposting with you guys ? 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[mandyjw]

8 hours ago, Consilience said:

Not necessarily. Yes that could happen, but then that wouldn't be what this pointing out of fearlessness points towards, nor does this pointing out of the nature of self and fearlessness necessitate the spinning of a story of an I that is threatened getting to a place where the I is secure. 

True fearlessness has no problems experiencing fear. We can hold space for this actuality when communicating about this clear seeing into the nature of self such that there is no longer fear, the simultaneous seeing that there was never fear. Again, paradox. 

Yeah, I mean I guess the clearest way to say it is that there's a thought of fear or a thought of the thing feared. When those thoughts are absent there is no fear. Thought is the only way we can seem to resist or include anything. Awareness is a yes to everything. The feeling of fear is response to the thought, not to an actual circumstance. The circumstance could be interpreted as a monster under the bed, a terrorist or the thought of not being enlightened. The feeling response of negative emotion or fear is saying this thought isn't true or desired. When we drop thoughts around fear and feel, when we shine the light of awareness on it, it's not separate from that light that we are and ceases to exist (stick out) as a separate experience or thing (ultimately, a thought). 

This only ever happens in real time. There no real continuum of time or a person who witnesses a continuum of time that who can do it over time. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by mandyjw

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

The “recognition that the self is not real” still includes a self, which was recognized as not real.

Nahm can we settle this once and for all? Does this recognition that the self is not real end the fear of dying or no?

I was just pointing to the subtle difference (only in regard to what you wrote, to the words) of there being a self of some sort which is recognized as unreal, vs there not being or ever having been a self at all. 

Apparently there can be a psychological recognition that there is no separate self, and apparently this is not necessarily an end or seeing through of the experience of fear, as the fear is then deflected psychologically, and projected onto the world, creation or experience, as something natural that happens. It is often psychologically added by the ego mind in justification… “for good reason”, or even accredited to “infinite intelligence”. 

What you are saying is perfectly accurate. This recognition of no self can & does occur along side an upholding that there is fear. The so called ego mind justifies & rationalizes not going deeper into the direct inspection of fear & meditative settling of thought activity, and deduces that fear is a naturally occurring phenomenon, or serves in some manor like survival, etc, perpetuating the belief of a separate self surviving, while simultaneously claiming the realization of no self. This is cognitive, the activity of thought, and is not (as you so humbly & accurately pointed out),  ‘awareness realization’ for lack of any term which communicates the actuality. 

This shed’s a clearer light on meditation, which is the same as saying (in this case) the settling of the very thought activity, which is the deflection, justification, projection and rationalization, which is fundamentally the upholding of the separate self, and thus the perpetuation of fear. Another way to say that, one could attend a “neo advaita” event, talk or gathering three times a day everyday, and while psychological clicks and ah ha’s likely ensue, this would not supplement cessation. 

So to speak, the way you’re going about it would be ‘right view’, and ‘right understanding’ imo. Accurate. 

[Consilience]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

That's not the point. It's clever but it's not enough. True fearlessness is zero fear altogether. When you see the illusion that the snake is not real. Is there any room for fear? Only if there is doubt. Perhaps the snake is real. Only then fear is possible. 

Fear and illusion go together. Awareness of illusion destroys all fear.  If there is even a spot of fear, that means there is a spot of false belief and indentity.

Full trancedens of a false identity leaves no room for fear. Sometimes the recognition of false identity is partial and not full than the fear will become weaker. But if the recognition of illusions is total. Fear is impossible.

There has to be an element of illusion for fear to exist. There has to be an element of unawareness for fear to exists. If awareness hits the peak, illsuions are gone. Fear is impossible.

This is not some clever message. What you’re describing is a condition to box in the unconditional. >> Fear never arises. This is a nice belief, but impossible for the body mind complex unless there’s been an immense amount of psychological rewiring, but the rewiring is not necessary to recognize the illusory nature of fear. Can you get that? This is huge. The context that holds the sensations of fear is completely fearless. Recognize the context, and all sensations of fear will be seen to be fearless. You experience fear so deeply, so completely, you open to fear so fully, that the nature of fear is seen to share the same nature as all, and vanishes even in the moment of total terror. The terror’s nature shares the same existential nature as the mind incapable of even experiencing fear. Please reread that last sentence.

Guy’s, everyone, start opening up to more paradox. 

[Salvijus]

@Nahm I can die peacefully now... ? Thank you Nahm for being a man of reason ?????

[Salvijus]

@Consilience why do you say it's impossible to not feel fear if fear is only an illusion? Caused by a false belief in the self. Is full disillusionment not possible?

It's like saying it's impossible to not be afraid of ropes. I say nonsance. Once the recognition that a snake is a rope happens fear goes away totally. Not partialy, not weaker, totally, no exceptions. 

I'm talking about an ultimate insight. An ultimate insight into no self which comes from hitting the peak intensity of awareness. Full buddhahood. Full disillusionment. I'm talking seeing through all illusions without a trace of it left. If there is not a single trace of illusion left, there's not a trace of fear left. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

43 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Nahm I can die peacefully now... ? Thank you Nahm for being a man of reason ?????

? Likewise. 

If I might… seeing through fear just the sake of seeing through fear is fine, great, no issue with it, totally get it. But… seeing through fear in conjunction with directly experiencing the manifestation of what’s on your dreamboard is ineffably, profoundly sweeter, and if I may, incredibly more efficient than the conceptual route.

 

[roopepa]

55 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Apparently there can be a psychological recognition that there is no separate self, and apparently this is not necessarily an end or seeing through of the experience of fear, as the fear is then deflected psychologically, and projected onto the world, creation or experience, as something natural that happens. It is often psychologically added by the ego mind in justification… “for good reason”, or even accredited to “infinite intelligence”. 

What you are saying is perfectly accurate. This recognition of no self can & does occur along side an upholding that there is fear. The so called ego mind justifies & rationalizes not going deeper into the direct inspection of fear & meditative settling of thought activity, and deduces that fear is a naturally occurring phenomenon, or serves in some manor like survival, etc, perpetuating the belief of a separate self surviving, while simultaneously claiming the realization of no self.

So... What about fear then? You mean it has nothing to do with this Truth-Spirituality stuff? That it has no reality, no reason, no function, literally nothing nowhere ever?

We think it's something, and something needs do be done about it, when it's really nothing, and nothing needs to be done?

[Salvijus]

@Consilience To say "I'm not afraid to feel afraid" is like saying I'm not afraid of fearing snakes when there are no snakes to begin with.

@Nahm lol ?

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

If there is not a single trace of illusion left, there's not a trace of fear left. 

True, but it's impossible, is what i said before. you are the illusion. you cannot stop being it. Buddha ate, drank and shit. If a tooth ached, he had a bad time. there is a limit to Buddhahood while the "illusion" of being human occurs. or rather, while you're human. fear is a fundamental part of this illusion, one of its pillars. it can be controlled but never eliminated. But there is no problem with fear if you know what it is. you feel it, you accept it, and that's it. Forget the snakes, are too gentle. think in hammers in your bones. You could go to your execution full of joy, but the human part will feel fear, even Jesus in the cross

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[VeganAwake]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

@Raptorsin7 

Haha lol ? 

Okey okey. No Im not trying to make anybody enlightened here. My main point is to give a solid logic proof explanation. That you're not enlightened until there's no longer a drop of fear in you. 

This is relevant on this forum because everybody thinks he's enlightened because they understand intelectually that the self is not real. And I wanted to show that it is not enough to have this understanding. A real insight that comes from awareness is missing. A real insight removes all suffering.

Hmmm.. is this answer okey?

This is just advaita debate games Im playing. Not trying to enlightened anyone. But it has a healthy purpose. This understanding can prevent people from falling into false enlightenment.

This whole thread is about the dangers of neo advaita. So i think it's appropriate here to speak about these things.

Yes psychological suffering ends because it's recognized the sufferer(ME) is an illusion.

But it still sounds like you believe there is a real separate individual that can one day BECOME fearless and thus allowing the body to become fearless.

Of course a body would not be afraid of of a rope that it already knew was not a snake. But the body can never predict when the next real snake might sneak into the house. 

What's being said is that the projection of a body becoming fearless has nothing to do with enlightenment.

As I said before the body will naturally jump out of the way of a moving cargo truck prior to any thinking about it.

There isn't a real you within the body that becomes fearless and then quickly decides whether or not to jump out of the way of the cargo truck.... that experience of a doer and thinker is the illusion of self.

❤ 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris365]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

@Nahm I can die peacefully now... ? 

There's nobody alive to begin with, so nobody can die... 

[VeganAwake]

5 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@VeganAwake This reminds me of when we used to go back & forth a few years ago on here, haha, time has flown since then! 

Hope you and your family are well! 

 

 

How about 'everyone' just focused on enjoying Christmas, instead of these good old Non-Duality wars. 

Its like when I argue with my friends about what footballer is better, no matter what he says to me, or I say to him, we're both usually set in our opinions and biases, so, if you know that, why not drop it and move onto something else lol? 

Maybe spend that time meditating  Or, do you need everyone to agree with your Non-Duality & method of awakening? I know I used to lol! 

Hey bro really nice to hear from you, yes my wife and three boys are doing great and I will be joining them next month in Grand Forks North Dakota after I retire from the military... 

Yes tis the season happy holidays to you and your family as well and I hope you are all doing well. ❤ 

 

[Nahm]

59 minutes ago, roopepa said:

So... What about fear then? You mean it has nothing to do with this Truth-Spirituality stuff? That it has no reality, no reason, no function, literally nothing nowhere ever?

We think it's something, and something needs do be done about it, when it's really nothing, and nothing needs to be done?

Yes. Well said. 

@Salvijus

 It is funny, my constant ‘plugging’ of the dreamboard. I do so though (all opinion here) because it’s about the life, the living, the creation. If there hasn’t been kensho, well then it’s obviously about that too. But, fear or not, self or not, water’s still carried, wood’s still chopped. 

[WelcometoReality]

@Salvijus Really interesting discussion you brewed up here.

Would you say that pain and suffering is the same thing or do you differentiate the two?

And

Is there a difference between a bodily fear i.e when falling and fear that occurs when thinking of a snake?

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

@Consilience why do you say it's impossible to not feel fear if fear is only an illusion? Caused by a false belief in the self. Is full disillusionment not possible?

It's like saying it's impossible to not be afraid of ropes. I say nonsance. Once the recognition that a snake is a rope happens fear goes away totally. Not partialy, not weaker, totally, no exceptions. 

I'm talking about an ultimate insight. An ultimate insight into no self which comes from hitting the peak intensity of awareness. Full buddhahood. Full disillusionment. I'm talking seeing through all illusions without a trace of it left. If there is not a single trace of illusion left, there's not a trace of fear left. 

Because fear is just a formation of sensations, both the physical sensations and then the emotional sensations of interpreting the physical sensations and the cross multiplication that happens when these sensations are not seen deeply. The deeper truth is that even these sensations share the same nature as the ultimate Nirvana state that you speak of, nothing is excluded. What is true is already true regardless of whether one is in this ultimate state of awareness.

You're idealizing Buddhahood, and turning a shadow out of terror. 

Buddha's Zen:

Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."