Meditation vs. ‘THIS’ (& The Dangers of Neo Advaita Explained)

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

True fearlessness has no problems experiencing fear.

That's not the point. It's clever but it's not enough. True fearlessness is zero fear altogether. When you see the illusion that the snake is not real. Is there any room for fear? Only if there is doubt. Perhaps the snake is real. Only then fear is possible. 

Fear and illusion go together. Awareness of illusion destroys all fear.  If there is even a spot of fear, that means there is a spot of false belief and indentity.

Full trancedens of a false identity leaves no room for fear. Sometimes the recognition of false identity is partial and not full than the fear will become weaker. But if the recognition of illusions is total. Fear is impossible.

There has to be an element of illusion for fear to exist. There has to be an element of unawareness for fear to exists. If awareness hits the peak, illsuions are gone. Fear is impossible.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Tim R]

Seeing through an illusion ("insight") is itself - an illusion. 

Please don't get upset about this, it doesn't quite mean what you (probably) think it means. 

The "nature of illusion" is such, that the very unreality of what you perceive to be an illusion is in a sense constructed by "insight". 

 

Look at a rotating barber pole (you now the old fashioned ones, with the red, blue and white stripes). It looks like it's going up (or down), but it doesn't.

The "illusion" is the false perception of the nature of the barber pole. Then, someone can come along and explain to you how this is just an illusion and bang! you have an insight and see that the barber pole is actually stationary.

Now what happened? What, in other words, is the nature of what you call "insight"? Are you suddenly seeing something different(ly)? Or have you been looking at the truth the entire time? And if so, what would this mean for the "insight" that you just had? 

"Well", you say, "but now I recognize he truth, which I didn't do before!"

Okay, fair enough. But what is this "recognition"? 

Re-cognition

This is a "necker cube". 

You can "switch perspectives" as to which corner of the cube is in the front and which in the back.

Experiment a little. See whether you can see both perspectives simultaneously. 

Is it any different with insight and illusion? 

What is his is his true face? Where is the illusion? Where is the insight? 

"What is your true face?" (Zen Koan)

 

Don't expect any insight into the illusory nature of insight. 

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Well", you say, "but now I recognize he truth, which I didn't do before!"

Okay, fair enough. But what is this "recognition"? 

Re-cognition

Seeeee.... I like this. I liked your post bro but look. There is such a thing as a false cognition, false perseption. And than once you see the false perception. Than you see the true perseption.

Like seeing a snake and feeling danger. And than you see the truth that the snake is a rope. Re-cognition. Realization of truth. Truth will set you free. Free from what? Free from delusions and fear.

 

[Ry4n]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

There is such a thing as a false cognition, false perseption

But consciousness is not a perception...

[Tim R]

@Salvijus I know what you mean. I've been trying to point you to something but I now think it's not necessary.

Insight is valuable and a good thing to have?

And yet, insisting that insight will liberate from fear and delusion is what perpetuates fear and delusion, but that might be very necessary. 

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Tim R said:

This is a "necker cube". 

You can "switch perspectives" as to which corner of the cube is in the front and which in the back.

Experiment a little. See whether you can see both perspectives simultaneously. 

Is it any different with insight and illusion? 

Yes it's different in this case. Cube can be looked at from different perspectives and both are real. Illusion can't be looked at and sayed it is real. You can’t ever see a rope as an illusionary snake and and say it is true. It is never true. No matter how you look at it. A rope is never a snake. It's an illusion. A false perseption. It something that doesn't exist. And true perseption removes the illusion of a snake.

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, Tim R said:

@Salvijus I know what you mean. I've been trying to point you to something but I now think it's not necessary.

Insight is valuable and a good thing to have?

And yet, insisting that insight will liberate from fear and delusion is what perpetuates fear and delusion, but that might be very necessary. 

Sorry if I missed some point. I really liked your post tho.

Why do you say insisting. Im only saying what is logical. There can't be fear of snake if you have the right perception that a snake is not real. It's just a rope. I don't see any logical flaw in this.

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

But consciousness is not a perception...

Okey true. I changed the word there because I felt it was appropriate in this context. Awareness is what enables a true seeing. A true sight. An Insight . Awareness is the destroyer of all delusions.

Hopefully this answers something in you ? 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Tim R]

Just now, Salvijus said:

There can't be fear of snake if you have the right perception that a snake is not real. It's just a rope. I don't see any logical flaw in this.

I'm not saying there are any logical flaws.

Yes, if you recognize a rope to be a rope and not a snake, that's very good. I don't think anybody would dispute that. 

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Yes, if you recognize a rope to be a rope and not a snake, that's very good. I don't think anybody would dispute that

So do you see what this means? 

A false belief that I am mortal and there is a self is the same example like with a snake. Once you see the self is not real, and nobody ever dies. Would that revome all fear of death in you or no?

Bro you are 1cm away from understanding this. It's exacly like snake and a rope thing. Self is an illusion. Awareness of this illusion destroys fear of dying...  man... this is so simple guys... so logical.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Tim R]

Just now, Salvijus said:

So do you see what this means? 

A false belief that I am mortal and there is a self is the same example like with a snake. Once you see the self is not real, and nobody ever dies. Would that revome all fear of death in you or no?

Bro you are 1cm away from understanding this. It's exacly like snake and a rope thing. Self is an illusion. Awareness of this illusion destroys fear of dying...  man... this sis so simple guys... so logical.

I do understand what you mean. 

Again, I now think it wasn't necessary to point out that insight is illusion. Sorry for making trouble?Maybe another time. 

[Salvijus]

@Tim R hmmm... it feels like you want say something but you holding back ? 

I hope you truly understand what I wrote and not just say you do to run away ? 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Raptorsin7]

@Salvijus What do you think is stopping you from sharing your understanding with others?

Couldn't we say that your understanding is not sufficient unless you can share it with others?

[Salvijus]

This true seeing of unreality of all illusions is the end of fear. End of fear means total psychological non resistence anymore. No resistence means no suffering anymore. Because suffering is caused by psychological resistence.

Intelectual understanding that there is no self will not remove the suffering. It has to be a consiquence of awareness. A true seeing has to happen that removes all illusions. Than we can say enlightenment has happened. Amen.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Salvijus What do you think is stopping you from sharing your understanding with others?

???

What do you mean? Why do you say something is stopping me from sharing this?

2 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Couldn't we say that your understanding is not sufficient unless you can share it with others?

Explain.

[Tim R]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

@Tim R hmmm... it feels like you want say something but you holding back ? 

I hope you truly understand what I wrote and not just say you do to run away ? 

I already said everything I wanted to say. I still cherish insight - and illusion

Like with so many things, this is deeply paradoxical from a logical point of view. So let's not get hung up on logic.

 

The greatest (non-) mindfuck was that the mind is an illusion. 

The greatest (non-) insight was that insight is also illusion. 

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, Salvijus said:

???

What do you mean? Why do you say something is stopping me from sharing this?

Explain.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I mean, you are trying to share your understanding right? Trying to point people to seeing that fear is an illusion, and intellectual understanding is not sufficient etc.

But clearly they are resistant and not accepting what you're saying. What would you have to say so the other people could see clearly what you are saying.

So if you're trying to point people to seeing that fear is an illusion because you have seen through the illusion, how can you ensure that the person you're speaking to can recognize the insight you're trying to share.

So it would be like:

"Hey this is x inisight, now do y and then boom you can recognize what i'm trying to share with you" - Salvijus

"Wow I can see exactly what you are pointing to. I no longer experience fear! Amazing!- Veganawake lol

[Salvijus]

@Tim R i hope i understood that your point that insight is an illusion. Your explanation was that is just a re-cognition. Like simply changing a perspective. Seeing a thing from different perspectives at multiple times and all of them are real. That's what I understood from your post.

My reply was. Yes there can be multiple perspectives that are real. But that's not the case with illusions. Illusions don't have multiple perspectives that are real. Illusions only exists when the true perspective is not seen.

I hope this is better now ? 

[Gesundheit2]

10 hours ago, Nahm said:

I think

That sounds weird

[Salvijus]

@Raptorsin7 

14 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

So it would be like:

"Hey this is x inisight, now do y and then boom you can recognize what i'm trying to share with you" - Salvijus

"Wow I can see exactly what you are pointing to. I no longer experience fear! Amazing!- Veganawake lol

Haha lol ? 

Okey okey. No Im not trying to make anybody enlightened here. My main point is to give a solid logic proof explanation. That you're not enlightened until there's no longer a drop of fear in you. 

This is relevant on this forum because everybody thinks he's enlightened because they understand intelectually that the self is not real. And I wanted to show that it is not enough to have this understanding. A real insight that comes from awareness is missing. A real insight removes all suffering.

Hmmm.. is this answer okey?

This is just advaita debate games Im playing. Not trying to enlightened anyone. But it has a healthy purpose. This understanding can prevent people from falling into false enlightenment.

This whole thread is about the dangers of neo advaita. So i think it's appropriate here to speak about these things.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Salvijus