Meditation vs. ‘THIS’ (& The Dangers of Neo Advaita Explained)

[Salvijus]

8 minutes ago, Nahm said:

If a thing is illusory, then there isn’t actually said thing, and what isn’t actual, or ‘there’, also can’t cause or be credited as having caused.

Aaaaaa. Okey, okey. But I disagree. I think illusion can cause fear. Like a rope and snake example you know? The belief that the rope is a snake causes tremendous fear even if it's not real. 

Same way the belief that you are mortal self doer can cause you to experience fear of death. Makes sense?

8 minutes ago, Nahm said:

That implies there is still a separate self. The one who remains which could be in or experience total acceptance (of whatever else)

No I don't agree. Total acceptance is a consiquence of realizing there is no self, it doesn't imply a seperate self doing the acceptence. It is this illusion of self that is causing resistence and fear. Once realization that there is no seperate self becomes experiencial. This causes Total acceptance or in other words, Total fearlessness. Because you know you can't die, and nothing bad can ever happen to you because you don't exist in the first place. So where is the question of the fear of death? Once the fear of death is gone, total acceptance is just your way of being, not something that you do. Logical or no?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

Open question to everyone, if you realized you don't exist and nothing ever bad can happen to you, experientially, not just with your intelect. Would there be fear of death in you?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

15 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Aaaaaa. Okey, okey. But I disagree. I think illusion can cause fear. Like a rope and snake example you know? The belief that the rope is a snake causes tremendous fear even if it's not real. 

Same way the belief that you are mortal self doer causes you experience fear od death? Makes sense?

Illusion can’t cause anything. Illusion is there-isn’t-that, so there isn’t some thing, which causes some thing. Rope, snake, fear, beliefs, death, all illusory. 

Quote

No I don't agree. Total acceptance is a consiquence of realizing there is no self. It is this illusion of self that is causing resistence and fear. Once realization that there is no seperate self becomes experiencial. This causes Total acceptance or in other words, Total fearlessness. Because you know you can't die, and nothing bad can ever happen to you because you don't exist in the first place. So where is the question of the fear of death? Logical or no?

There-isn’t-a-self can’t be credited with causing anything, nor accepting anything. It’s like saying a unicorn experiences total acceptance & total fearlessness. It’s not a matter of if a unicorn does or doesn’t. There’s no such thing as a unicorn. 

“if you realized you don't exist”

A you doesn’t realize a you doesn’t exist. 

[dorg]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Open question to everyone, if you realized you don't exist and nothing ever bad can happen to you, experientially, not just with your intelect. Would there be fear of death in you?

If you don't exist, how can you realise that nothing bad can happen to a you that does not exist.

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, Nahm said:

There’s no such thing as a unicorn. 

So okey. Self doesn't exist right?  Self is an illusion and can't cause anything, right? So how do you explain the fear of death? What is causing that fear if not a belief that you are mortal? 

I feel only because there is a belief that I'm mortal I feel the fear of death. Even if it's totally not real. But the fear is still there nobody can deny it. What do you think?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, dorg said:

If you don't exist, how can you realise that nothing bad can happen to a you that does not exist.

I mean it's a state of awareness when you realize everything that happens never touches me. It's just series of experiences coming and going and there's no owner of them. This realization gives you an insight that there is no you that can be damaged or impacted by any experience. Would that remove the fear of death?

Sorry did this answer your question?

[Salvijus]

8 minutes ago, dorg said:

If you don't exist, how can you realise that nothing bad can happen to a you that does not exist.

Maybe i didn't understand your question sorry.

[Salvijus]

14 minutes ago, Nahm said:

if you realized you don't exist”

A you doesn’t realize a you doesn’t exist

That's true. There is no you that gains realization. But insight is still possible. The insight that there is no you is still possible. Isn't it?

A clear experience that everything is just coming and going and nothing touches me. Is this insight not possible? 

And wouldn't such an insight remove all fear from death altogether?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[dorg]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Maybe i didn't understand your question sorry.

There is no one to actually understand questions (or ask them).

[Salvijus]

21 minutes ago, Nahm said:

There-isn’t-a-self can’t be credited with causing anything, nor accepting anything. It’s like saying a unicorn experiences total acceptance & total fearlessness. It’s not a matter of if a unicorn does or doesn’t.

I'm not saying a unicorn is experiencing total fearlessness. I'm saying there is an insight that unicorn is not real and than the consiquence of that realization is all fear vanishes. Because I thought I was a unicorn all my life and now I realized It was an illsuion. So fear of death goes away. Is it not so?

Fear of death was caused by a belief that im a unicorn that is mortal and can die. And now it's broken by becoming aware of it's unreality. Now this insight causes all fear to go away. Total fearlessness and nobody behind it being fearless.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, dorg said:

There is no one to actually understand questions (or ask them).

So? 

[Nahm]

9 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's true. There is no you that gains realization. But insight is still possible. The insight that there is no you is still possible. Isn't it?

Insight is illusory. 

9 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

A clear experience that everything is just coming and going and nothing touches me. Is this insight not possible? 

And wouldn't such an insight remove all fear from death altogether?

Still got the separate self in there, the one nothing touches. What isn’t can’t be removed. 

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I'm not saying a unicorn is experiencing total fearlessness. I'm saying there is an insight that unicorn is not real and than the consiquence of that realization is all fear vanishes. Because I thought I was a unicorn all my life and now I realized It was an illsuion. So fear of death goes away. Isn't it not so?

That “I”, which has the insight, which realized, is ‘the separate self’, and is illusory. 

[dorg]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

So? 

So if there is someone there to do these things, it is a believed-in-self, not actual. This is the self you are talking about when you say it can realize things. But is does not actually exist and never has.

[VeganAwake]

The conditioned body will turn its head when it's name is called, prefer coffee over tea and avoid death by jumping out of the way of a moving train. Then the sense of self claims those actions as it's doing. It takes credit as the doer and thinker of all actions and thoughts. And thus it also seems to suffer when things don't go according to its unreal agenda.

❤ 

[BipolarGrowth]

6 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

The conditioned body will turn its head when it's name is called, prefer coffee over tea and avoid death by jumping out of the way of a moving train. Then the sense of self claims those actions as it's doing. It takes credit as the doer and thinker of all actions and thoughts. And thus it also seems to suffer when things don't go according to its unreal agenda.

❤ 

Yep. Avoidance of pain has nothing to do with losing or not losing the fear of death really. 

[Salvijus]

Just now, Nahm said:

Insight is illusory. 

Why do you say this? Isn't it true that I can get an insight that snake doesn't exist. Snake was just a rope all this time? Wouldn't this insight remove the fear of the snake for me?

 

3 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Still got the separate self in there, the one nothing touches.

No it's a state where there is no seperate self anymore. No self at all. Just sensations coming and going. And realization that none of those sensations are me. This realization that there is no me is the end of fear of death. What do you think?

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What isn’t can’t be removed. 

Why not? Fear is not real, fear is an illusion. But it can definitely be removed don't you agree? All illusions can be removed by becoming aware of their unreality. No?

7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

That “I”, which has the insight, which realized, is ‘the separate self’, and is illusory.

No no please... it's not the "I" that gains the insight. Insight is just a product of seeing that there is no I. This insight that there is no seperate self is possible and is caused by awareness. Awareness of the unreality of I brakes the illusion of seperate self and end the fear of dying..does it make sense?

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Yep. Avoidance of pain has nothing to do with losing or not losing the fear of death really. 

Avoidance of pain is survival. Fear of death is survival. They are the same. Caused by the same belief that I am mortal. Only when there is a ralization that I can't  die because I don't exist. Fear of death goes away. Logical, or no?

[Salvijus]

15 minutes ago, dorg said:

So if there is someone there to do these things, it is a believed-in-self, not actual. This is the self you are talking about when you say it can realize things. But is does not actually exist and never has.

Yes there is nobody to do anything. Doer does not exists. Doer is the illusion. But how to brake this illusion? This illsuion of a doer is causing all the problems. To realize there is no doer one has to become aware of this truth totally. This insight is not a consiquence of a doer doing things, this insight is a consiquence of an intense awareness that penetrates the illusion of the doer. Makes sense?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Why do you say this? Isn't it true that I can get an insight that snake doesn't exist. Snake was just a rope all this time? Wouldn't this insight remove the fear of the snake for me?

That I, me & insights are illusory. 

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

No it's a state where there is no seperate self anymore. No self at all. Just sensations coming and going. And realization that none of those sensations are me. This realization that there is no me is the end of fear of death. What do you think?

State(s) is a belief, and now that you apparently believe it, conjecture. So there’s three apparent layers to see though now.

5 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Why not?

Because it isn’t. 

6 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

No no please... it's not the "I" that gains the insight. Insight is just a product of seeing that there is no I. This insight that there is no seperate self is possible and is caused by awareness. Awareness of the unreality of I brakes the illusion of seperate self and end the fear of dying..does it make sense?

Insights and the I, self, one, etc, which has them is illusory. 

[BipolarGrowth]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

Avoidance of pain is survival. Fear of death is survival. They are the same. Caused by the same belief that I am mortal. Only when there is a ralization that I can't  die because I don't exist. Fear of death goes away. Logical, or no?

I don’t have fear of death on any type of existential/spiritual level. Pain is still unpleasant for the body due to the way it is conditioned to work. At super high levels of development, you can certainly withstand more pain than before because the suffering is not attached to it, but the body reacts to pain on its own. 
 

Trying to eradicate pain is a bit of a fool’s errand IMO. The Buddha taught about suffering, not pain. Much of the middle way is about the fact that ascetic disciplines focused on experiencing pain don’t work to become enlightened, at least for the vast majority compared to a more balanced approach.