Meditation vs. ‘THIS’ (& The Dangers of Neo Advaita Explained)

[VeganAwake]

@Salvijus  This is exactly why it's referred to as Awakening.

It reveals the futility of an unreal individual attempting to find wholeness within wholness.

❤ 

[VeganAwake]

There's nowhere to get to, there's no levels or degrees which need to be attained. All there is is wholeness which also includes the experience of separation.

❤ 

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

There's nowhere to get to, there's no levels or degrees which need to be attained. All there is is wholeness which also includes the experience of separation.

❤ 

You are right, but you don't deserve to say that, unless it's your true experience. Now it's only intelectual. If it was your true experience. You'd be a Buddha, incapable of suffering and total acceptance of the universe. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Salvijus

[VeganAwake]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

You are right, but you don't deserve to say that, unless it's your true experience. Now it's only intelectual. If it was your true experience. You'd be a Buddha, incapable of suffering and total acceptance of the universe.

That's what's being experienced there, its whole complete and perfect. ? 

 

 

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, VeganAwake said:

That's what's being experienced there, its whole complete and perfect. ? 

So you could do a fire test then? Could you sit on fire with total equanimity and zero resistence then?

[VeganAwake]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

So you could do a fire test then? Could you sit on fire with total equanimity and zero resistence then?

You definitely have some very wild and creative ideas about enlightenment.

It reminds me of this movie.

 

[Salvijus]

No bro. It's you. You are an expert at bullshiting. I got you into a corncer but you show me some irrelevent movies and changing topic to escape from being exposed.

That last post was your chance to see your delusions that your realization is not complete but you choice to run away from it.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Salvijus

[Chris365]

@Salvijus your idea of setting all enlightened non individuals on fire is not it... Actually, it is just This appearing as an individual with some fixed concepts about what enlightenment is or is not...

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

No bro. It's you. You are an expert at bullshiting. I got you into a corncer but you show me some irrelevent movies and changing topic to escape from being exposed.

That last post was your chance to see your delusions that your realization is not complete but you choice to run away from it.

As a prior Seeker I can tell you've done your fair share of seeking non-dual wisdom and such...the glass is filled to the top and overflowing.

The thing is this conversation isn't going anywhere because there is a slew of preconceived notions held their about what enlightenment should or shouldn't be like.

And if what's being said here doesn't match up with those preconceived notions they're cast to the side and labeled as bullshit..... it's actually a defense mechanism of the ego which is called "shoot the messenger". If you shoot the messenger you don't have to take seriously the implications of the message.

You don't have anybody in a corner because there isn't an I or a YOU, just acquired concepts identified with as MY concepts.

The video actually seemed quite relevant. ? wouldn't you say.

❤ 

 

 

[Mu_]

On 11/19/2021 at 10:26 PM, Consilience said:

Originally this was just a reply in another thread but thoughts kept flowing and it turned into something worthy of its own thread. Thoughts aren’t quite as organized as other threads, this one was more stream of consciousness but felt worth sharing nonetheless.

Question from other thread: “Neo advaita could be bullshit so could Buddhism or any other religion. How can one know ultimately?”

 

By experimentation. And understanding Buddhism without rigorous personal meditation is impossible, hence why most people misunderstand it as well as misunderstand meditation in general.

Meditation as a formal spiritual practice does not necessarily imply seeking, as Neo Advaita always either explicitly or implicitly implies. There is enormous depth to this practice beyond stumbling into ultimate truth. There is an unveiling of the relative dynamics of self, world, another, death, life, the nature of existence, happiness, suffering, duality, creation, manifestation, relationship, communication - all of this is in addition to the possibility for direct consciousness or enlightenment, the seeing into the true nature of self and reality which is that there is only tightly bound aggregation of phenomena giving rise to a self and world, but there is nothing behind these appearances nor anything grounding their amalgamation as a solid ‘thing.’ Meditation, when done properly, allows one to literally see this self and world construction in real time. It’s no longer believed this is all a dream, we become directly lucid. 

The deep problem of Neo Advaita is that while the communications are generally spot in terms of their existential descriptions, it has a massive danger - the possibility of forming a belief in the no self. The belief life is a dream vs the direct experience. This belief vs. the direct experience is widely distinct, heart wrenchingly distinct. But because the belief is wrapped around such a solid intellectual understanding and even worse, because the belief is representing an accurate description of reality, the belief becomes that much more believable, ingraining itself even more subtlety into the unconscious mind. This, is ultimately a form of self identification, but one so subtle and sneaky, many never even see it, thinking they’ve discovered ultimate truth. Moreover, because this belief is so powerful, it does indeed provide comfort and a conditioned form of happiness, similar to the happiness a Christian would feel as a result of their religion. It’s a wicked form of devilry.

Let’s take a step back, 

What does any being really want, ultimately? Happiness. Reality tends towards happiness even when those methods are wildly dysfunctional due to existential and psychological ignorance, regardless of whether it’s recognized there is no one seeking happiness or no reality at all. The intention is always a favorable manipulation of the present to best serve the self, which when taken to its pinnacle, is unconditional happiness and when at its lowest, the pettiest scrapping by of survival. No matter what one’s conceptual or direct consciousness, happiness and self serving manipulation is always the priority. These self serving manipulations will vary wildly depending on the quality of the being’s mind in relation to ultimate consciousness. 

One of the cornerstones of meditation’s utility - it grounds the being’s understanding. Similar to how an MMA match would ground a fighter’s martial understanding, meditation grounds one’s “level of consciousness” or more specifically, one’s understanding of what THIS really is and points towards. As long as suffering, resistance, psychological challenge is arising as a result of meditation, there are aspects of consciousness that have not realized what THIS is, directly. Please understand, this does not mean pain, emotional distress, gross psychological or physical challenges never arise during meditation, it means that one is actually, legitimately, authentically experiencing the true nature of these phenomena which eliminates the meta-resistance, ie suffering, of these phenomena. 

Whereas Neo Advaita implicitly invites you to believe in the nature of reality, meditation invites you to sit down and experience it. Utterly different approaches. 

So while on the one hand, ultimate reality is indeed always present, always available, a being’s consciousness of such reality is still conditionally based on present moment experiences. If the conditions were to change, the consciousness (or in the case of Neo Advaita, belief) would be gone. Hence why practice is so powerful, it is a slow permeation of this consciousness into all moments regardless of condition, whether mundane and taking a shit, or mystical non-dual union with God. 

Is the famous seeking trap a risk with meditation? Yes, 100%. But generally this is due to a misunderstanding of meditation, poor instructions, and not rigorous enough participation, persistence, and patience on the part of the meditator. Eventually it must be recognized that the activity of seeking has nothing to do with one’s consciousness of what is true. Seeking, not seeking, doesn’t matter - truth, awakening, and liberation are possibilities and simultaneous actualities. It’s as though there is a simultaneous expansion and contraction of the drop into the ocean and the ocean into the drop. As a result of practice, reality unravels itself like an unfolding eternal fractal, the fractal as itself is always present yet the traversing more deeply into the fractal is taking place in an endless loop.

Things get really paradoxical, trans-rational, loopy, and on the surface, insane with hardcore meditation, and especially post-satori practice. 

At the end of the day, if 2 hours of silent stillness is creating problems, you can rest assured there is still much self fixation and identification, yet simultaneously no self or fixation at all. The choice - do we want to experience this liberation or pretend? Sit and you’ll find out. 

The funny thing is though at at least from my highest realization, is there is no difference in being happy from a belief in the actual as you say, and knowing it through direct experience.  The happiness is theoretically the same but not always, and the supposed separate self that is happy as a result of this true belief, is ultimately the same as one who has seen through this supposed separate self and theoretically both could lead to contentment.  There's no guarantee with this stuff. 

Its almost fucking laughable, god damn fucking hilarous, especially being one of those that put in supposedly so much work to see this.  Most serious and respected teachers however I think would have some disagreance with this.

[Mu_]

14 hours ago, Salvijus said:

@VeganAwake do you understand that Truth-realization is the end of suffering? If you do, than obviously you should understand what end of suffering looks like. It looks like that monk. That's how it looks like. Only someone who is rooted in Truth absolutely can do such a thing. Suffering is the greatest test how deeply is someone rooted in Truth. 

Yes, seeker is just a thought believed in. But to brake the illusion of the seeker, it's not enough to grasp this intelectually. One has to become deeply aware of impermenant nature of the seeker on experiencial level. When one sees that seeker is just a thought on a deepest level, he realizes himself as pure awareness. This knowledge and this awareness liberates one from fear of death and suffering. 

If one is capable of suffering than he's not aware of his true nature as pure awareness. He's disconnected from the truth. Suffering and unawareness go together. How unaware of your true nature you are, that's how much you suffer.

Makes sense?

You want to know what Truth-realization looks like.  Go look in a mirror.  Go outside and look around.  Its never not happening.

If your waiting to be able to sit in peace while a fire burns you to a crisp and a 10 foot dildo is up your ass, your only going to be left with a melted dildo.  Don't wait that long  

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

The funny thing is though at at least from my highest realization, is there is no difference in being happy from a belief in the actual as you say, and knowing it through direct experience.  The happiness is theoretically the same but not always, and the supposed separate self that is happy as a result of this true belief, is ultimately the same as one who has seen through this supposed separate self and theoretically both could lead to contentment.  There's no guarantee with this stuff. 

Its almost fucking laughable, god damn fucking hilarous, especially being one of those that put in supposedly so much work to see this.  Most serious and respected teachers however I think would have some disagreance with this.

That's really a good point & reminds me of the phrase "ignorance is bliss".

And what's crazy is although enlightenment is usually described as an impersonal experience, it's simultaneously very personal in the sense that every experience is different.

Some seem to have an open receptiveness to it, and it can seem quite ordinary while others experience life shattering or debilitating reactions. Even heard it described as a terrifying realization.

It's like a box of chocolates you never know what your gonna get.

Here it could be described as shockingly ordinary and simultaneously extraordinary but completely unexpected.

In a weird way it feels like death and rebirth yet it's recognized no one is living it. ?

 

 

[Gidiot]

@VeganAwake in a sense it’s just such a mindfuck cause it truly does seem like there are higher and higher states of consciousness and that you can progress but then you have to ask “to where”? And that’s when I think the bullshitting starts cause how could an apparent person outline for someone a point when they are enlightened I mean you can’t know if you’re enlightened cause there’s no one and there never was and even I don’t know how that can be said definitively. It just seems to be like beyond whatever this is anything and everything is bullshit language concepts stories etc and the sense of self for sure but again no one can know it.

 

like I feel that there is an apparent  path to walk and practices to do but I also don’t think they mean anything just like it doesn’t mean anything intrinsically to go to the gym you just have apparent benefits from and it alters the appearance but I’m probably preaching to the choir here.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Gidiot

[Gidiot]

Some people say god realization is the goal of life but to me it just seems that means no more intrinsically than taking a shit or stubbing your toe. It’s an experience or sensation  yes and potentially a good one maybe an aha moment but you cant tell me it means anything more than anything else in this

[Salvijus]

10 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

As a prior Seeker I can tell you've done your fair share of seeking non-dual wisdom and such...the glass is filled to the top and overflowing.

The thing is this conversation isn't going anywhere because there is a slew of preconceived notions held their about what enlightenment should or shouldn't be like.

And if what's being said here doesn't match up with those preconceived notions they're cast to the side and labeled as bullshit..... it's actually a defense mechanism of the ego which is called "shoot the messenger". If you shoot the messenger you don't have to take seriously the implications of the message.

You don't have anybody in a corner because there isn't an I or a YOU, just acquired concepts identified with as MY concepts.

The video actually seemed quite relevant. ? wouldn't you say.

❤ 

 

 

Sorry, video is unavailable to me.

Sorry for my previous tone also.

I'm not tryint to shoot the messeger. It's the opposite. I agree with everything you sayed. But do you agree with me that the reason resistence exists is because of illusion of self that can die. This illusion that there is a self is the cause of fear and resistence.

Now can you see the obvious implication here that if you truly get the insight that self doesn't exist. Do you grasp that it ends all fear of death and all resistence?

Do you grasp that this insight that there is no self has to be a consiquence of intense awareness that penetrates all delusion of self/doer/owner and it cannot be an intelectual conclusion?

Do you grasp that there can be degrees of how deep this insight can get? That the degree on which you know you don't exist will determine the degree of your acceptance?

Do you grasp that experiencial realization that there's no me and nothing bad can ever happen to me is the end of all suffering?

Do you grasp that suffering and resistence is caused because there is a belief that there's a self that can be harmed and can die. This illusion is caused by unawareness and ignorance. And it's the source of suffering.

All this is to show that if there's is suffering, there is psychological resistence, and if there's resistence than it's because of self-grasping. And self grasping is there because of lack of experiencial insight that the self is an illusion. To brake this illusion you need enormous awareness. Intelectual understanding that the self doesn't exist won't do anything.

Please bro.... please look at it. It's a flawless explanation. Don't turn away from it. Please consider even for 1 moment that this is could be logical and true. Allow this much possiblity and openness.

I will probably leave this to rest now, I think it's a really solid, logical, step by step explanation that makes a lot of sense. I hope you at least consider this for a moment before rejecting it. We should close this now,  enough was sayed.

Cheers ?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[VeganAwake]

@Gidiot  yes a complete mind-f***, almost like prisonbreaking the mind and then recognizing there was never a real prison or prisoner. Like busting through Illusions only to look back and see nothing there.... complete Anarchy.

There is no goal no meaning purpose or value to anything. No real path to follow, complete freedom for No One. Nothing matters in any way at all. Wholeness without an opposite.

And after this realization there can be going out and starting a business and setting goals, yet no one is bound to them any longer.... it's indescribable!

❤ 

[VeganAwake]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Sorry, video is unavailable to me.

Sorry for my previous tone also.

I'm not tryint to shoot the messeger. It's the opposite. I agree with everything you sayed. But do you agree with me that the reason resistence exists is because of illusion of self that can die. This illusion that there is a self is the cause of fear and resistence.

Now can you see the obvious implication here that if you truly get the insight that self doesn't exist. Do you grasp that it ends all fear of death and all resistence?

Do you grasp that this insight that there is no self has to be a consiquence of intense awareness that penetrates all delusion of self/doer/owner and it cannot be an intelectual conclusion?

Do you grasp that there can be degrees of how deep this insight can get? That the degree on which you know you don't exist will determine the degree of your acceptance?

Do you grasp that experiencial realization that there's no me and nothing bad can ever happen to me is the end of all suffering?

Do you grasp that suffering and resistence is caused because there is a belief that there's a self that can be harmed and can die. This illusion is caused by unawareness and ignorance. And it's the source of suffering.

All this is to show that if there's is suffering, there is psychological resistence, and if there's resistence than it's because of self-grasping. And self grasping is there because of lack of experiencial insight that the self is an illusion. To brake this illusion you need enormous awareness. Intelectual understanding that the self doesn't exist won't do anything.

Please bro.... please look at it. It's a flawless explanation. Don't turn away from it. Please consider even for 1 moment that this is could be logical and true. Allow this much possiblity and openness.

I will probably leave this to rest now, I think it's a really solid, logical, step by step explanation that makes a lot of sense. I hope you at least consider this for a moment before rejecting it. We should close this now,  enough was sayed.

Cheers ?

@Salvijus  

I remember trying to uphold all those spiritual beliefs, it becomes like an identity.... it's exhausting ❤ 

 

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

@Salvijus  

I remember trying to uphold all those spiritual beliefs, it becomes like an identity.... it's exhausting ❤ 

 

Why is it a belief and not a logical truth?  

Can you show me where the logical mistake is being made in what I wrote in my previous post or do you just label everything as "belief", and "preconceived notions". That's like shooting the messenger without willing to look at the sheer logic of it. You are dissmising everything I say but you don't explain where the fault in my reasoning is.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Salvijus

[Nahm]

@Salvijus

Enlightenment could be said to be the non-undoable realization there are no people or separate selves and never were. A realization which is only apparent, there isn’t even realization. So no person or individual becomes enlightened, or awakens. If one believes one is enlightened, awake, having awakenings, etc, that is ‘the ego’ (beliefs). For the enlightened one there are no comparisons, no enlightenment, no awakening(s), and there is no logic, these are beliefs, and truly not even (are only apparent). Meditatively, is to say these apparent thoughts simply seem to come & go, for no one. The apparent guy flipping burgers is as enlightened as the Buddha (is the enlightened one). 

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

Why is it a belief and not a logical truth?  

Can you show me where the logical mistake is being made in what I wrote in my previous post or do you just label everything as "belief", and "preconceived notions". That's like shooting the messenger without willing to look at the sheer logic of it. You are dissmising everything I say but you don't explain where the fault in my reasoning is. Why everything I say feels so logical and solid to me? I don't understand where you see the flaw in what I wrote above.

I have understood everything you're saying. The general misconceptions about enlightenment are endless. Hence the importance of approaching any inquiry empty of concepts, biases or preconceived ideas about it.(Empty glass)

 

1) Enlightenment isn't actually real. It's just a word that points to the end of the already unreal experience of being a separate individual within the body/mind. 

2) It has nothing to do with the body no longer feeling physical pain. It's the recognition that there isn't an owner or experiencer behind that feeling of pain or pleasure for that matter.

3) There are not levels or degrees of enlightenment. Levels and degrees only seem real within the framework/dream story of being a real separate individual that could either move closer or further away from so-called enlightenment. 

4) Enlightenment has nothing to do with the apparent individual gaining enough spiritual knowledge and understanding that it will one day achieve or attain something called enlightenment.... it's actually the opposite. It's the recognition that the individual trying to achieve or attain is completely unreal.

5) Enlightenment doesn't answer the question of why? It reveals that the questioner is completely unreal.

6) Enlightenment isn't just about experiencing certain happy emotions or something like that. It's every emotion!

7) It's not about becoming a better selfless spiritual person that society will love and fall on their knees for. It's the recognition that better or worse are mere concepts that are accepted as true.

❤ 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by VeganAwake