Meditation vs. ‘THIS’ (& The Dangers of Neo Advaita Explained)

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Happiness itself is never false, it's only a thought that attributes the happiness to being caused that is false. The happiness is actually pure, raw being. Thoughts cover over it and beliefs are what gives us a reason to keep the attachment to the thoughts. The difference between the only ever now love or happiness and the thought of it and being able to catch the thought that places conditions on it, tries to own it or secure it and therefore covers over it. 

Belief in Jesus allows people to let go of thoughts that fear death or guilt themselves for past actions. It allows them to believe that they are not responsible for making their lives good or perfect. There are many thoughts that perpetuate suffering that any religion gives one permission to drop. 

The belief in Jesus is the dynamic of placing conditions on the happiness you described in the first paragraph. After having grown up in TN surrounded by many fundamentalists, it’s crystal clear their happiness is based on conditioned experience, beliefs. So while yes the happiness in and of itself is never not true or pure, the context in which it’s held can be deeply conditioned. So while it’s true it can be helpful in a certain context as you described in the second paragraph, it’s still built off of a foundation of 1) belief rather than direct experience 2) attachment and the unconscious and sometimes conscious forms of suffering that arise when life challenges those attachments, and 3) dishonesty, which is misaligned with truth and therefore misaligned with love. Most do not see how deeply dishonest they are being as a result of their religion.
 

The christians that are actually being honest and grounding their understanding from direct experience are mystics, not fundamentalists. 
 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

There is no "devilry" in this, it is only that the attribution of the "why", the "cause" or of the needing permission to let go of thoughts is false. 

The devilry is replacing an honest not knowing with beliefs and thinking this is equivalent. Dishonesty about one’s understanding ultimately what Im referring to as devilry. Of course this is relative, a pointer. 
 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Getting a new desired object allows people to let go of thoughts that what they want isn't here. When they walk out in the driveway and see what they aren't used to seeing and they like what they see they tap into pure appreciation and awareness. This is real. The thought saying "it's because of the car" is false. It's actually the experience of a lack of habitually believed thoughts that they are experiencing. There is no devilry in this, just misunderstanding. 

The dogmatic insistence of believing in the thoughts is what Im referring to as devilry. If there was open-mindedness, honesty, inquiry, etc., this would be a different story.

 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

So cars, Jesus, scents, neo Advaita, meditation, sex, vipassana, all of it is a "thing" that actually tends to help us let go of thoughts. Even letting go of thoughts, that's a thought. The thought of something is not the experience of it. The thought "meditation" is never meditation. 

What Im suggesting is there is much, much, much more than simply letting go of surface level thinking. Yet it’s all one, goes nowhere and is truly, never attained. Hence this paradox I keep going on about. 

[gettoefl]

truth ain't dualistic, everything i need is right here

[Consilience]

@Adamq8 Resonate with much of your post. Please understand the calling out of Christianity was not a calling out of it as a non-dual mystical tradition. I was referring to the dogmatic forms we see most commonly today. 
 

15 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

that a Meditation practice somehow is more "important" then deep contemplation about the nature of reality is solely a preference, since thoughts is also included within reality and thoughts and imagination is a creative power.

I never stated one was more important. I dont really draw a distinction between meditation and deep contemplation. Both are contemplative practices. True contemplation is just the other side of the coin of true meditation. Though not stated in op, Im with you. This, however, is not something the majority of Christians on the planet do. 

18 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

You dont know what goes on in andromeda galaxy, why would you even know what the ultimate nature of reality is? Through meditation?

 

Because the ultimate nature of reality transcends whether Im in the andromeda galaxy or any other, it’s independent of the context of any and all experience or relative phenomena, hence it’s the nature of reality. And yes through meditation, or contemplation, accident. Doesnt really matter. The clear recognition beyond doubt is what matters. And the humility to see there is further to go. 
 

21 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

You are not Jesus either, what have you produced for the goodness of others that is even remotely near what Jesus has done?

Contemplate that.

Im not claiming to be jesus. What does this have to do with the thread? 

[Consilience]

26 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

am with you here and thanks for your tremendous insights in this thread, they resonate and accord with my practice

don't believe something, trust something and then verify it experientially

Thank you. Im glad it resonates 

[RMQualtrough]

In my experience with people in the West at least, meditation only works for bipolar or schizophrenic people. Not sure why for bipolar, doesn't make sense why they're prone to spontaneous mystical experience etc.

Everyone else I know just meditates for years and never has such an experience, which seems like a total waste of time. Those people probably ought to just take drugs or not bother.

[Adamq8]

3 minutes ago, Consilience said:

@Adamq8 Resonate with much of your post. Please understand the calling out of Christianity was not a calling out of it as a non-dual mystical tradition. I was referring to the dogmatic forms we see most commonly today. 
 

I never stated one was more important. I dont really draw a distinction between meditation and deep contemplation. Both are contemplative practices. True contemplation is just the other side of the coin of true meditation. Though not stated in op, Im with you. This, however, is not something the majority of Christians on the planet do. 

Because the ultimate nature of reality transcends whether Im in the andromeda galaxy or any other, it’s independent of the context of any and all experience or relative phenomena, hence it’s the nature of reality. And yes through meditation, or contemplation, accident. Doesnt really matter. The clear recognition beyond doubt is what matters. And the humility to see there is further to go. 
 

Im not claiming to be jesus. What does this have to do with the thread? 

Thanks bro for your answer! ?

I read my post again and it felt like my post could be interpreted as if I was being offensive, im sorry if that was the case ?

With the Jesus part was just that I actually find it reasonable to believe in Jesus without needing to experience it 100%, because his words resonates without being necessary a mystic, but you are Def right that the non dual Christians is extremely important in this day and age, we have some extremely " woke " mystics in the Christian tradition.

I always enjoy your posts brother, you are certainly a wise man!

There might be some minor disagreements but overall we agree on most things ?

Thanks for your time and keep spreading the word.

[Consilience]

Just now, RMQualtrough said:

In my experience with people in the West at least, meditation only works for bipolar or schizophrenic people. Not sure why for bipolar, doesn't make sense why they're prone to spontaneous mystical experience etc.

Everyone else I know just meditates for years and never has such an experience, which seems like a total waste of time. Those people probably ought to just take drugs or not bother.

And how much experience do you actually have of people in the west? Sounds like you’re parroting actualized.org dogma honestly. 

“those people probably ought to just take drugs or not bother” lmao duuuuude. 

The meditation circles Im apart of, people who have had wild success with meditation are not bipolar or schizophrenic. I am not these either and have had a lot of success. 
 

Go to some meditation retreats, hell do one yourself. You may find some. Or ya know, go take drugs. 

 

“Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.” - Dao De Ching 

Guess I have a big mouth or don’t know 

[gettoefl]

4 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

In my experience with people in the West at least, meditation only works for bipolar or schizophrenic people. Not sure why for bipolar, doesn't make sense why they're prone to spontaneous mystical experience etc.

Everyone else I know just meditates for years and never has such an experience, which seems like a total waste of time. Those people probably ought to just take drugs or not bother.

nothing out of the ordinary has happened to me and im pretty hardcore about it, but i know i do go deeper all the time and what happens off the mat has been pretty wonderful, ego is pretty much curtailed and i feel an enormous sense of purpose and i am infused with mindfulness

[Consilience]

3 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Thanks bro for your answer! ?

I read my post again and it felt like my post could be interpreted as if I was being offensive, im sorry if that was the case ?

With the Jesus part was just that I actually find it reasonable to believe in Jesus without needing to experience it 100%, because his words resonates without being necessary a mystic, but you are Def right that the non dual Christians is extremely important in this day and age, we have some extremely " woke " mystics in the Christian tradition.

I always enjoy your posts brother, you are certainly a wise man!

There might be some minor disagreements but overall we agree on most things ?

Thanks for your time and keep spreading the word.

Thank you brother.
 

And I hear you on the jesus part… it’s probably harder for me to hold space for this due to my conditioning growing up in such a hostile environment as a child, being judged and told I would go to hell by other kids because I wasn’t christian. But there is definitely that mystical side and the room for faith. So again, thank you for that pointing out. 

[RMQualtrough]

2 minutes ago, Consilience said:

And how much experience do you actually have of people in the west? Sounds like you’re parroting actualized.org dogma honestly. 

“those people probably ought to just take drugs or not bother” lmao duuuuude. 

The meditation circles Im apart of, people who have had wild success with meditation are not bipolar or schizophrenic. I am not these either and have had a lot of success. 
 

Go to some meditation retreats, hell do one yourself. You may find some. Or ya know, go take drugs. 

 

“Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.” - Dao De Ching 

Guess I have a big mouth or don’t know 

I don't know many people into it at all, but of the ones I do there's a strong bias to schizophrenia and for whatever reason also to bipolar (which is hard to understand). When you say success do you mean in mental effects like lowered anxiety, or mystical experience attainment?

When I do it myself it does nothing, same with hypnosis, plus I have hardcore insomnia. I feel sure it is all linked... Maybe a physical mental resistance to altered states can mute the potential of meditation working?

It is great it works for you. I have seen another dude on YouTube who wasn't schiz/bipolar but could induce such a state. To me it is just crazy when people talk about how they meditated for years (especially in the self help industry), but none of the people saying it have understanding of nondual reality etc. So when I see that it strikes me as a waste of time...

Someone dope them up already lol.

[gettoefl]

9 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

it strikes me as a waste of time...

au contraire ... meditation is not a practice a discipline or a habit, it is a lifestyle a perspective a grounding a metamorphosis ... i'm a completely different person because of it

[Fearless_Bum]

Just now, gettoefl said:

au contraire ... meditation is not a practice a discipline or a habit, it is a lifestyle a perspective a grounding a metamorphosis ... i'm a completely different person because of it

@gettoefl meditation is reality itself. 

That's why some teachers completely shit on any idea of being able to adopt a practice, this works for some people but I find most people benefit from a more pragmatic Shinzen Young type teacher. 

[gettoefl]

4 minutes ago, Fearless_Bum said:

@gettoefl meditation is reality itself. 

That's why some teachers completely shit on any idea of being able to adopt a practice, this works for some people but I find most people benefit from a more pragmatic Shinzen Young type teacher. 

too woo woo for me, meditation is my attempt to unveil reality, each to their own, i have never once understood anything SZ has said

[Fearless_Bum]

4 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

meditation is my attempt to unveil reality.

@gettoefl this is what meditation will destroy ^. 

And agreed, whatever works for you ?.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Fearless_Bum

[Nos7algiK]

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

There can be a recognition that this individual jumping through spiritual hoops and practices attempting to find something it feels is missing.... is not a real entity within the body... it's an illusion of self which never gets satisfied.

Fully agree with you. The tricky part for most is there is infinite illusions to which someone could perceive on their path. The idea of getting closer to the center or growing in consciousness by latching onto practices and the experiences from the practices is all rooted in deception. If one truly set their intent to chasing these experiences they would have them their entire life never reaching a bottom due to the infinitely deceptive nature of realty.

But, once someone recognizes this deception and there never was a more grand mystical experience to be had they will be liberated instantly. If all is the same "substance" for lack of a better term and that substance is using itself to "form" itself to view itself and this substance is Infinte/Nothing than no matter what I did or didn't do I would always be the same thing, that substance. It would be literally impossible for me to ever be more or less, to ever find more or less, to ever believe more or less, and to ever move away from it's center. All concepts, ideas, beliefs, forms, and anything would all be inherently the same. There is no " I " to be had because the  " I " is a delusion of this substance which has no other.

I can't point to it, because it's not it. Yet, if I pointed to it, it is only it for the thing I'm pointing to will always be it just as the hand that is pointing, the room that I'm pointing in, the idea of the pointing, the message that goes with the pointing, and anything else conceptualized with it. It just "is". Is'ness is....

[RMQualtrough]

@Nos7algiK Nothing CAN'T be deceiving you though? I mean if you find nothingness, there's no illusion there, because an illusion is something.

So you find that and it's the end, I would think.

[Nos7algiK]

15 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Nos7algiK Nothing CAN'T be deceiving you though? I mean if you find nothingness, there's no illusion there, because an illusion is something.

So you find that and it's the end, I would think.

There is nothing to be found, so believing there is something is the deception. It's not truly an illusion or deception as in a malicious trick. But, rather what we perceive to be "grounds" to reality are impermanent and are not grounds at all. It's difficult to put into words, at least for myself, because like I mentioned before you can't point to it.

To give a more practical concept. It's like sand forming more sand and believing the shapes it sees somehow isn't sand. No matter what shape it seen or how aware of how much sand there was of itself. It would always be the same thing, sand. You could shape a human that perceives itself in the sand that is seeing the face of God in the sand. But, it's still just sand. The sand would be deluding itself to ever think it was more than that. The delusion itself is part of the sands property, therefor there is no delusion it is just sand.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Nos7algiK

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

The thread speaks for itself brother. So do my  other posts.

Im glad you’ve found happiness and peace in this life. Im glad Neo Advaita brings others peace and happiness. But that doesn’t mean it’s true Enlightement nor peace beyond conditioned circumstance. I write for those interested in an authentic consciousness of what is true.
 

 

I don't know what Neo Advaita is, I think it means "a new not too" and that just doesn't make any sense.

There's no such thing as truth because there isn't anything false, there's only apparent misunderstandings.

Enlightenment isn't real bro. It's a concept within the dream story of being a separate individual that can one day wake up with enough diligent spiritual practice or meditation.

The seeker also spent a lot of time meditating back in 2017/2018 until the it was recognized to be completely unreal. 

❤ 

[silene]

12 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

The seeker also spent a lot of time meditating back in 2017/2018 until the it was recognized to be completely unreal. 

Interesting, so do you now just live a regular life with no 'spiritual' practice, apart from posting in the forum? 

Or, did you have an awakening in 2018 which completed your seeking and in effect turned your whole life into one unfragmented meditation? 

[Consilience]

33 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

There's no such thing as truth because there isn't anything false, there's only apparent misunderstandings.

Enlightenment isn't real bro.

This simply isn’t my experience. What I define as Enlightenment is available now and was not available when I was younger before seeking yet was always the case due to the fact that it was true. There was a direct encounter with my true nature, the culmination of the seeking dissolving into and as my true nature. There is something the words “Absolute Truth” point towards. 

It’s literally a paradox, a cosmic paradox that won’t ever make sense to the linear human mind. 

Perhaps I got lucky. But once the recognition has occurred, all doubts disappear. Saying enlightenment isn’t real is like someone telling me color isn't real as I stare into a rainbow.