Are you changing?

[WokeBloke]

I would like to suggest the idea of an unchanging awareness or unchanging consciousness is a delusion and no such thing exists.

Go back to a photo of your 10 year old self and really look at the difference between that body (you use to be that body) and your current body. How can there possibly be an unchanging awareness when change is all there is. If you were to be reverted back to the 10 year old self then I think you would clearly say that fundamentally you have changed not just conceptually.

Because of this I propose that saying everybody has the same awareness is false because this would imply there is no change. Rather this word is being used to refer to our own state of being and we think that its the same for everybody else. Awareness probably refers to something completely different for you then it does for me. Its like the word tree. Its a single word but there are millions of different types of trees. Similarly there is one word for awareness but billions of different versions of awareness.

Edited November 18, 2021 by WokeBloke

[Carl-Richard]

20 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

How can there possibly be an unchanging awareness when change is all there is.

Change and unchange are one.

Change of form happens within an unchanging, formless void.

Change is dynamic because it is contrasted with something static.

You can't have just one or the other. They complete each other.

[Batman]

Did you ever asked who is perceiving the changes in the body and the mind? Who is aware of this "changing awareness" you cling to?

You are trying to solve this on an intellectual level. It won't work.

[Fearless_Bum]

Change and unchanging can be transcended. 

Even change is actually not truth. 

[WokeBloke]

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Change and unchange are one.

Change of form happens within an unchanging, formless void.

Change is dynamic because it is contrasted with something static.

You can't have just one or the other. They complete each other.

How can something unchanging be changing? Either its changing or its not changing. Can't be both. 

It can't be hot and freezing simultaneously.

[Tim R]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

How can something unchanging be changing? Either its changing or its not changing. Can't be both. 

Actually, yes. Have you ever noticed that the only constant is change? 

[WokeBloke]

12 minutes ago, Batman said:

Did you ever asked who is perceiving the changes in the body and the mind? Who is aware of this "changing awareness" you cling to?

You are trying to solve this on an intellectual level. It won't work.

The changer is perceiving the changes. The changing one is aware of the changing one. 

[WokeBloke]

12 minutes ago, Fearless_Bum said:

Change and unchanging can be transcended. 

Even change is actually not truth. 

You say you transcended change yet all you do is change 

[Nahm]

@WokeBloke

Unlike meditation, change is a thought. 

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

How can something unchanging be changing? Either its changing or its not changing. Can't be both. 

It can't be hot and freezing simultaneously.

Opposites complete each other. How do you know what hot is without experiencing cold? Hot is when not-cold. Cold is when not-hot.

One way to see how hot and cold are one is to hold your hand under the tap and very slowly turn the temperature from hot to cold (or vice versa). Try to say exactly when it turns hot or cold.

You can always make a finer distinction, because the distinction is arbitrary. The distinction is only you made inside your head. It's just one large gradient of experience.

[WokeBloke]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@WokeBloke

Unlike meditation, change is a thought. 

Meditation is also a thought actually 

Both refer to real processes.

[Nahm]

5 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Meditation is also a thought actually 

Hmm. What’s the thought meditation about, what’s it mean?  

Quote

Both refer to real processes.

That’s the three cups and no peanut experience of the unpracticed. It’s just using a synonym for change (processes) which is also a thought. There is no actuality of change or processes, only thought attachment. And not even that, really. 

[WokeBloke]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Opposites complete each other. How do you know what hot is without experiencing cold? Hot is when not-cold. Cold is when not-hot.

One way to see how they're one is to hold your hand under the tap and gradually turn the temperature from hot to cold (or vice versa). Try to say exactly when it turns hot or cold. It's only a decision you make in your head. You can always make a finer distinction, because the distinction is arbitrary. It's just one large gradient of experience.

I agree they are both referring to the same thing namely temperature which is a continuum. 

Still my point remains that it cant be hot and cold simultaneously. There can't be change and no change simultaneously.

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

Hmm. What’s the thought meditation about, what’s it mean?  

That’s the three cups and no peanut experience of the unpracticed. It’s just using a synonym for change (processes) which is also a thought. There is no actuality of change or processes, only thought attachment. And not even that, really. 

It means different things to different people. Your way of meditating and my way of meditating is different. Yet the idea that you are meditating is just a thought.

 

You say there is no change. Please look at the world. You are headed straight for old age. Please look at the old people of this world and tell me they haven't changed with a straight face. Change is truly all there is.

[peanutspathtotruth]

2 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

There can't be change and no change simultaneously.

Why not? Isn't THAT a thought?

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

it cant be hot and cold simultaneously

This is because "hot" and "cold" are both related to form. Hot as form is hot, and cold as form is cold.

 

9 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

There can't be change and no change simultaneously.

Change is related to form, but the changeless is related to the formless. Your analogy does therefore not translate.

[peanutspathtotruth]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

Change is truly all there is.

In the world of form, yes. Truth is ever fresh, always morphing, always being born, always dying - right now. But ultimately, what IS that change? What is its ground? As was mentioned here, what is the light that sees itself changing? 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

Why not? Isn't THAT a thought?

It's definitely a thought. It may not be true but let's examine.

Take a soccer ball that is changing position.

It would be illogical to say that ball is changing position and also not changing position.

Or take a child that is growing. It would be illogical to say the child is growing and also not growing.

Thus I say it is not possible for something to be changing and also not changing since those are two completely different things.

[peanutspathtotruth]

2 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

It's definitely a thought. It may not be true but let's examine.

Take a soccer ball that is changing position.

It would be illogical to say that ball is changing position and also not changing position.

Or take a child that is growing. It would be illogical to say the child is growing and also not growing.

Thus I say it is not possible for something to be changing and also not changing since those are two completely different things.

You are taking experiences in the frame of physical reality and make a mental assessment of its properties. Within this specific frame, yeah sure you're right. But reality is not anything specific, you are not anything specific, and surely reality is not limited to any physical universe. Look at your consciousness and try to make the same examination. You can't. Mind is way out of its league here.

[WokeBloke]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This is because "hot" and "cold" are both related to form. Hot as form is hot, and cold as form is cold.

Change is related to form, but the changeless is related to the formless. Your analogy does therefore not translate.

You are not separate from the changing form. Thus whatever the form becomes is what you become. The formless is changing.

As far as I can tell there isn't a formlessness that is aloof from the changing form. If there was truly no change then you could say you are unchanging but since you are changing you can't say that you are unchanging in my opinion. And that's a good thing in my view because it means you can evolve forever.