Are you changing?

[peanutspathtotruth]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

You are not separate from the changing form. Thus whatever the form becomes is what you become. The formless is changing.

As far as I can tell there isn't a formlessness that is aloof from the changing form. If there was truly no change then you could say you are unchanging but since you are changing you can't say that you are unchanging in my opinion. And that's a good thing in my view because it means you can evolve forever.

I agree, this is a very good point. But even saying the unchanging is changing is already too much. It's actually neither, both, and each of it at the same time. And even that is not true. It's simply not categorizable. 

[Nahm]

12 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

It means different things to different people. Your way of meditating and my way of meditating is different. Yet the idea that you are meditating is just a thought.

Three cups no answer. 

Quote

You say there is no change. Please look at the world. You are headed straight for old age. Please look at the old people of this world and tell me they haven't changed with a straight face. Change is truly all there is.

Not sure you’re getting the three cups reference. You can plug any word or thought in, like world, old age, people, change, etc, and it’s still believing the thought is perception. Look around for yourself. Check direct experience. Seeing thoughts anywhere? Believing you’re thinking perception? 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

You are taking experiences in the frame of physical reality and make a mental assessment of its properties. Within this specific frame, yeah sure you're right. But reality is not anything specific, you are not anything specific, and surely reality is not limited to any physical universe. Look at your consciousness and try to make the same examination. You can't. Mind is way out of its league here.

Actually I am specifically this changing body and nothing else right now. I am not limited to this body since I am changing. You're right I don't know fully (or even close to fully) what I am but I know I am definitely changing.

Also all we have to examine reality is our bodies. You simply are not beyond your body. You can keep transcending it but you are what you are right now and nothing more and nothing less.

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

You are not separate from the changing form. Thus whatever the form becomes is what you become. The formless is changing.

As far as I can tell there isn't a formlessness that is aloof from the changing form. If there was truly no change then you could say you are unchanging but since you are changing you can't say that you are unchanging in my opinion. And that's a good thing in my view because it means you can evolve forever.

Based on what you said earlier about your body at 10 years old, you seem to be only making statements about form here. You treat "you" as your body (form). What about the formless you? What about the you beyond space and time? Beyond physical objects? Beyond thoughts? The formless you is unchanging. You can become directly aware of this right now. What is the feeling you get when you think about what existed before you were born as a physical body? That feeling is the unchanging, formless you.

[WokeBloke]

3 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Three cups no answer. 

Not sure you’re getting the three cups reference. You can plug any word or thought in, like world, old age, people, change, etc, and it’s still believing the thought is perception. Look around for yourself. Check direct experience. Seeing thoughts anywhere? Believing you’re thinking perception? 

Lol no sorry I don't get the three cups reference.

I don't believe the thought is perception. I know the word simply refers to something that I perceive. I look around and I perceive what I CALL change. I perceive what I call old people and young people. The word refers to something real that I perceive though. 

 

And baby to old person is called change or transformation but certainly not No change.

[peanutspathtotruth]

7 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Actually I am specifically this changing body and nothing else right now.

 

8 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Also all we have to examine reality is our bodies. You simply are not beyond your body. You can keep transcending it but you are what you are right now and nothing more and nothing less.

Hmmm no, it's perfectly clear that "I" is all there is right now. And clearly the body is not all there is right now. The body is just one energetic expression of that, along with everything else. 

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Based on what you said earlier about your body at 10 years old, you seem to be only making statements about form here. You treat "you" as your body (form). What about the formless you? What about the you beyond space and time? Beyond physical objects? Beyond thoughts? The formless you is unchanging. You can become directly aware of this right now. What is the feeling you get when you think about what existed before you were born as a physical body? That feeling is the unchanging, formless you.

My exact point is that an unchanging self is a delusion. There is no formless me since I am the changing form. Or I could say the formless me is evolving/changing by being form. Form can't be separated from formless.

I admit my view could be wrong but I notice that I am the form and am not separate from it.

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

 

Hmmm no, it's perfectly clear that "I" is all there is right now. And clearly the body is not all there is right now. The body is just one energetic expression of that, along with everything else. 

Are you not seeing everything with your body?

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

There is no formless me since I am the changing form.

So you choose definition rather than feeling. I'm just saying it's possible to choose feeling.

[peanutspathtotruth]

Just now, WokeBloke said:

I admit my view could be wrong but I notice that I am the form and am not separate from it.

Yes but this does not, in any way, conclude that form is all there is. Of course you are form. But there is also very clearly the formless, infinitely expansive existence. It is being itself as form, but it is also being itself as the formless. When all form comes to an end, when all change stops and comes to a halt, what is left?

[Rilles]

Are you aware of the form or are you the form? Very carefully look at this in your direct experience.

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

So you choose definition rather than feeling. I'm just saying it's possible to choose feeling.

The feeling is constantly changing. There is no unchanging I only a changing I. Your feeling of what you are and my feeling are completely different. You are not a feeling you are that which feels.

[peanutspathtotruth]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

Are you not seeing everything with your body?

No, don't you see that this is a trick of the mind? Form is perceived, including what you call body, and what you call perceptions. Taking the correlation of perception and what you call body to be proof that you perceive with the body is simply a belief. Let it dissolve and see what's left. The body is in you, you are not in the body.

[WokeBloke]

5 minutes ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

No, don't you see that this is a trick of the mind? Form is perceived, including what you call body, and what you call perceptions. Taking the correlation of perception and what you call body to be proof that you perceive with the body is simply a belief. Let it dissolve and see what's left. The body is in you, you are not in the body.

I never said I'm in the body. I say I am the body. Not separate form it. Also you are seeing with your body. Close your eyes and no seeing. Open your eyes and you see. It is precisely because you have eyes which are a part of your body that you see. Also it is the body that is seeing. Look at people in the world. All there is to them is their bodies and they see you with their bodies.

 

form is perceived by form.

Edited November 18, 2021 by WokeBloke

[peanutspathtotruth]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

Close your eyes and no seeing.

What are "your eyes"? Aren't they a perception that you call eyes? What does closing your eyes mean? There is a sensation that you label "closing my eyes", then a perception you call "lack of seeing" and then a mental interpretation of connecting all this. Of course, on a relative level, you are (also) an embodiment of your formless self. But ultimately, even that is an illusion. It's all just labels and thoughts. Drop all thought and you can't say anything about there being a body through which a something is perceiving.

[Nahm]

43 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Lol no sorry I don't get the three cups reference.

It’s a reference to the guy who sits on the street with three cups and a peanut, and you bet five bucks which cup the peanut’s under, after he shuffles them around. Thought is similar. When you switch from the thought ‘change’ to ‘processes’ without noticing, you’re experiencing the ‘shuffling of the cups’, and never finding the peanut.

Quote

I don't believe the thought is perception.

Yes, you totally do. Change can not be pointed to, because it’s a thought. You believe it can be pointed to (see pics) because you believe the thought ‘change’ is perception, or as a concession ‘what’s seen’, or ‘what’s in perception’, or, ‘what’s perceived’, however you’d like to put that. There is no actual separation between ‘what’s seen’, ‘seeing’, ‘knowing of the seeing’, and awareness of the knowing. Don’t take my word for it of course, check direct experience. 

Quote

I know the word simply refers to something that I perceive.

That’s a belief. Actually check direct experience. Have a back up pair of drawers handy first.  

Quote

I look around and I perceive what I CALL change. I perceive what I call old people and young people. The word refers to something real that I perceive though. 

Only when thoughts are believed…

Quote

And baby to old person is called change or transformation but certainly not No change.

… and one is “certain” (right). 

[WokeBloke]

Just now, peanutspathtotruth said:

What are "your eyes"? Aren't they a perception that you call eyes? What does closing your eyes mean? There is a sensation that you label "closing my eyes", then a perception you call "lack of seeing" and then a mental interpretation of connecting all this. Of course, on a relative level, you are (also) an embodiment of your formless self. But ultimately, even that is an illusion. It's all just labels and thoughts. Drop all thought and you can't say anything about there being a body through which a something is perceiving.

If we accept the definitions we can continue. eyes refer to what is shown below.

Now is the body closing its eyes or is a conceptual formless awareness closing its eyes?

[peanutspathtotruth]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

If we accept the definitions we can continue. eyes refer to what is shown below.

Now is the body closing its eyes or is a conceptual formless awareness closing its eyes?

What you call eyes is a specific, separated part of the whole of experience. And to continue arguing further doesn't make sense because you are thinking in terms of separation and duality. There is no such thing. DROP YOUR BELIEFS ABOUT ANYTHING. They cloud your clarity that all that is is the same. You are speaking in relative terms, but your main argument is about an absolute, about the fundamental reality of "I". Not possible, you can try as much as you want.

[WokeBloke]

13 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Are you aware of the form or are you the form? Very carefully look at this in your direct experience.

I would say I am aware of the form with and as the form.

Or the form is aware of itself.

[Batman]

2 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

I would say I am aware of the form with and as the form.

Or the form is aware of itself.

Can an eye perceive itself?

Of course you are using form to perceive. But perception is not what you are, by definition. If you were your perceptions, you could not perceive them directly. You would be perceiving something else, a reflection. Moreover, if you were your perceptions, then perceiving a bomb explodes would mean that you exploded. 

What you are missing is that you can't perceive who You are. You are aware of the character that manifests as body and mind, but You are too caught up and confused with the experience of being a self, so You don't get You.

Who were you before your parents were born?

Edited November 18, 2021 by Batman