FlyingLotus

Leo’s “Rant Against PUAs” Q&A

Started by FlyingLotus,

30 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

-I was watching Leo’s “Rant against PUAs” episode and noticed that he basically did a Q&A in the comments section.  Thought I’d share most of it here since he answered a lot of questions.

-Leo’s words have not been altered, except for a couple typos.  I’ve also bolded parts of Leo’s answers for you skimmers :P.  Titles were made by me.

-The “But Leo” questions are composites of some questions that kept getting asked over and over again.  The other questions I did not make up (believe it or not).

_________________________________

 

  • “But Leo, what about the ‘good' PUAs who tell you to leave women better than you found them?”

          Leo: In practice that principle is rarely followed. It’s only followed when it serves the PUA's own agenda. And as soon as it doesn't, the PUA don't give a shit, after all, pickup taught him how to not give a fuck.

 

  • “This community is just a way to easier express such human nature. Do you really think, if PUA community does not exist, that world will be place with less narcissism, vitriol, sexism, dogmas?”

          Leo: This is definitely a problem of the human condition and not limited to PUA. Certainly plenty of regular guys mistreat women. But at least mainstream society frowns upon narcissistic behavior while PUA says: beast mode bro!

 

  • “You manipulate them into giving them what girls want boohoo”

          Leo: No, you manipulate them (and yourself) into serving your petty agenda.

 

          Leo: Unfortunately that's not the full story. Pickup companies and instructors glorify the low-brow aspects of pickup A LOT. I don't want to have to name names and examples, but I can certainly compile a long list. I don't want to publish such a list because it would make me look petty and vindictive.

          What value exactly are you offering a woman when you put her into your rotation, without telling her, then dumping her for a hotter girl?

          What value exactly are you offering a woman who wants a relationship but you evade all relationship talk and keep her on the hook?

          What value exactly are you offering a woman by speaking about women as whores, sluts, liars, and cheaters?

          What value exactly are you offering a woman when you have sex with her and then kick her out of your house in the middle the night and never call her back?

          The above examples are not rare exceptions. They are standard operating procedure for experienced PUAs.

 

          Leo: That is to miss to point. Why is the pickup community so immature and self-centered in its attitude towards relating with women. << Ask yourself that.

          Let's stop pretending that PUAs are God's gift to women. Many PUAs are so narcissistic they can't even maintain a relationship. This is NOT something that women want. It wastes their time and nerves.

 

  • “But Leo, not all PUAs are dumb, close-minded and vulgar, just some of us…”

         Leo: There are definitely intelligent and openminded and decent PUAs. I have met them. Many of them thumbed up this video. They are that way despite the community, not because of it. That core decency and openmindedness was not developed inside the community but outside of it. And if one stays in the community too long, that narcissism will soak into you to some degree, the question is to what degree.

         There is a toxic vibe to the community that is NEVER openly addressed or discussed. It's like taboo. You get attacked the minute you bring it up or you get dismissed.

 

         Leo: After browsing the MGTOW “wall”, it's obvious that this is a self-righteous ego-driven ideology, no different than a religion or a political party. Dogma through-and-through, a distraction from doing inner work. Their view is just an ego-reaction to feminism. And many of those stereotypes about women are pain false. Most women are NOT seeking relationships to get your money. If that was true, pickup techniques would not work. The best pickup technique would be to pull out your wallet.

          This ideology has butt-hurt written all over it. It's really no different than racism.

  • “What about Eben Pagan?”

         Leo: David De Angelo (Eben Pagan) is more mature.

 

          Sir Leo the White Knight???

  • “Why you gotta be such a white knight, Leo?”

          Leo:

          1) The fact is that the ENTIRE community is predicated upon ego and distraction from truth, but that's such a deep point most of you cannot fathom what I mean when I say that because you haven't done sufficient consciousness work. In many respects I was not harsh enough. I only held back because then I would have totally lost you guys.

          2) Secondly though, even the first point aside, still a very significant subset of the community is excessively egotistical and manipulative and sexist, even by lax standards. We're not talking about 5% here. It's more like 30-70%. Which is not what you guys admit. If you admit anything, you admit it as though it's like, "Oh yeah, there's always a few bad apples. Like 2%". That is denial.

          3) Naturals are manipulative, but much less so. They aren't as calculating about sex, they don't have a rich dogma and ideology developed (which is perhaps the most dangerous part about pickup). A natural doesn't have his whole identity and ego wrapped up in this. He doesn't invest 10,000 hours doing this shit. Manipulation is like a technical term in consciousness work. You manipulate when you try to serve your self-agenda in an indirect, underhanded fashion. Can you talk to a human being and not be manipulative? Definitely. But that would be a totally different interaction than a PUA can fathom. In the PUAs brain, this shit does not commute, because he has probably not had a single authentic human interaction in years.

          4) Did you notice that you called me a white knight? Did you actually do that consciously? Where did you learn that word from? PUA ideology. Have you ever sat down to contemplate what that word really means and whether it is being used in a fair way, or a biased way to shut out all criticism of PUA?[/b] That is it's function in the PUA ideology. It's the gatekeeper. Along with many other phrases and concepts.

          I have a video called How You Lie which goes in-depth into how people manipulate and lie in very subtle and unconscious ways. The problem is these are very nuanced things to wrap your mind around and take time and commitment to study and realize. So it's hard to explain in a short comment.

          Of course manipulation is not only a problem with pickup. But the problem is exacerbated in pickup because the manipulation is encouraged and called "win-win" or excellent game.

          Texting is a great place to see manipulation clearly. Next time you text a girl, notice how each text is calculated to get her to serve your agenda in some subtle or obvious way. It's not a direct, honest communication between two people. It's a guy "working" the girl. Just like a good salesman works a client. The same of course happens in the club. You are working the club. An effective PUA is like a shark. It's all calculated for the pull. You cannot get high pull rates without this. And you certainly manipulate like crazy for the close, busting through all the logistical hurdles. Some hurdles can be by-passed honestly. But many can't.

          And the real damage happens when all of this is what "relationship" becomes for a PUA. There's little genuine relating and care, it's mostly about getting your needs met and then moving on with your life.

          In the same way that we have a desire for businesses to be more ethical, and governments to be more ethical, we want PUAs to be more ethical.

 

          Leo: Ultimately, I think women want a guy that has believes in himself and is firm on his values and knows where he's going in life. The problem is that the vast majority of men aren't that and thus women cheat, play games, etc. It's hard to picture a guy that's on top of his shit with a woman playing games with him. He would drop her faster than she can say "sorry".

          This narrative of all non-PUAs being chodes and weak nice guys who can't get laid and are mistreated by women is way over-exaggerated. It's a projection of the PUA hardcase newbie onto the world. Yes, some guys are like that, but hardly the majority. In the end, PUA is a tiny percentage of lays. Like less than 1% of all lays come from PUA.

 

          Pickup isn’t about getting sex???

  • “Now hold up for a second I stopped this video at 6:03 cause I felt like I have to write this comment. The thing is that a lot of pua instructers preach that happiness comes from within…”

          Leo:  And yet practically, the emphasis is on how to bang lots of girls and become successful.

          It's so hard to criticize PUA because it's like religion. Anything bad that I point to will be handwaved away by pointing to something good. And so the corruptions never really get addressed.

 

          Leo: Yes, there is growth, but it stagnates very quickly.

          Thievery can also be a form of growth. But I would be remiss not to point out that it's a twisted and self-destructive activity, which you should aim to outgrow as quickly as possible.

 

          Leo: I got news for ya, you are not going to actually gain true confidence through pickup. That is surface level confidence. At the core you are still gonna be broken and fearful.

 

          Leo: You can still listen to pickup videos if you really need to. But be mindful of the dogma and the narcissistic values being exhibited and cherry-pick only the stuff you need. Filter the information through your own higher-consciousness values.

 

  • “Somewhere this guy [Leo] has completely missed the point... It can seem, and no doubt CAN be sleazy: but for the most part i have found it is exactly the opposite of such…!!"

          Leo: Of course YOU have found it helpful to get better at manipulating people. You gotta look past that, look deeper at the issue.

          That's like a used car salesman saying: "You know.. I have found selling used cars very helpful for me. I don't see a problem with it. It undoubtedly made me richer.”

 

  • “I've watched leos vids and and rsd pickup videos now and i thought they were about the same thing deep down… if you think pickup is just to have sex you got it wrong.”

          Leo:  Pickup is not so much about sex as it is about ego. Pickup is a very low form of self actualizing. Especially as it is actually practiced. The videos make pickup look a lot more innocent than it actually is. Pickup in practice is ridiculously egotistical and unconscious, especially when you're highly successful at it.

          Do NOT make the mistake of equating success with picking up girls, with consciousness.

          Make a distinction in your mind between talking to women and genuinely caring about them vs. maximizing your self-agenda and success at any cost.

          All humans are extremely susceptible to manipulation. If women were not, pickup as an industry would not even exist.

          The "best" PUAs are still very manipulative. Everything from how you dress, to how you flirt, to the white lies you tell, to how you text, to how you seed the pull, to how you break through last minute resistance is very manipulative, even though you tell yourself you're just being authentic.

 

  • “While your last couple of videos have been some of the best and most insightful ever, this is one of the worst… Maybe I just feel that way because I disagree…”

          Leo: See my video again: How You Lie

          And as you listen, point the finger at yourself. Cause that is a description of you that you haven't fully comprehended yet.

          Self-honesty please. Truth over self-agenda.

          If you want to deliberately remain unconscious, fine, but then you are in REALLY the wrong place for that. This channel aims to destroy you.

 

          Leo: You can be mindful of a "bad" behavior as you're doing it, and what will happen is that you will see how damaging it is to you, and then it will naturally fall away.

          Here's a very deep principle: you cannot engage in a damaging behavior while at the same time being fully conscious of the damage it causes you.

          Of course pickup ideology's purpose is to make one unconscious as one performs the manipulations, and relabels them as healthy rather than unhealthy, so this principle never really kicks in.

 

          Leon, why u Jelly at RSDses Mad SKillz broh?????

  • “Dude, what the fuck??????????????????  Dude!!! Without rsd I would never have gotten any girls, dude, Ozzie and Tyler saved my life, literally saved my life, so wtf??”

          Leo: The mistake you're making is evaluation the situation based on success getting girls. It doesn't matter if RSD go you laid by Megan Fox. The dynamics you're operating on are still low consciousness. Which is why they work!

          There are much bigger issues at stake than getting laid. It's sorta like you're saying, "Dude! WTF! Shooting up heroin made me feel awesome!" True. But boy are you in deep trouble with that mindset. You aren't aware yet of the deeper issues.

 

shitmandood from Youtube asseverates:

  • “He (Owen Cook) has nothing to apologize for if that's who he is an a-hole.  But why hide it?  Why PR?  He's not planning on being a Saint or the President.”

          Leo: I wasn't talking about individual people but the values of the community, which are clearly egotistical.

          Don't make this into some personal attack against Owen. I personally like the guy and some of his ideas are excellent.

          Open your eyes and look at how the community actually functions. What is the average level of consciousness of PUAs? How do PUAs ACTUALLY relate to women? How do PUAs actually act in-field? How do PUAs talk to each other? How do PUAs react to criticism? What do PUAs ACTUALLY say and think about women, people, and the world? << All of that is generally NOT healthy because it is infected with neurosis, ego, and falsehood.

          Has it improved over time? Yes, a bit, but there are much deeper issues here which are baked into the very foundation of pickup which would be very difficult to right without pissing a lot of people off.

 

          Leo: I've watched much RSD content. I've hung out and watched all kinds of coaches. What you got here was a broad, representative analysis of the entire pickup community, not one coach or one company. These are the limitations inherent in any attempt to go out and cold-approach girls at nightclubs and bars. I've hung out with so many different guys who do this. I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly in-field.

 

          Leo: The key point is, don't let the IDEOLOGY of pickup infect your mind.  Dating girls is not a problem. The problem is the alpha-bro ideology behind RSD.

 

  • “Most single men going clubbing are going for women…Pickup artists are the same way, except they're actually successful at a much higher rate.”

          Leo: They're also 10 times more egotistical, ideological, and neurotic. That's the hidden cost of your much higher rate.

          It's like if we were having a discussion about corporate greed, and you'd counter by saying, “But we make so much money drilling for oil! Look! Stop being beta. Everyone has to make money to eat. What's wrong with making money? We're just highly successful at it.”

          See, at stage Orange, the ego is blind to the costs. The costs are numerous, some are gross and some very subtle. To start to see the costs is to start to evolve into Green.

          What's interesting is that you could do Green pickup, but it would look quite different than what pickup currently is. It would be softer, less cut-throat, and truly win-win. Pickup today is not truly win-win. It's all male-agenda driven.

 

  • “i feel like this video could be for newbies just getting into pickup and theyre trying to heal their pain lol. if youve been with rsd long enough you would know they teach the oppisite…”

          Leo: That's a delusion. My points were derived from a personal 3 year study of how typical RSD followers act in-field.

          I never said everyone. But the pickup culture at large is obviously dysfunctional and excessively hurtful. How could it not be with so much ego at play?

 

          Leo: Must I show you a screenshot of a typical PUA forum? The thread titles and member usernames alone will prove all my points. I can cite you dozens of examples from all your favorite PUAs of their immaturity and narcissism. What are we even talking about? The denial here is ridiculous. You guys are totally blind to your own bullshit, and paint anyone that ever speaks up as beta, jealous, whiteknight, or anti-PUA.

 

          Leo: There is huge gap between the modern PUA's principles and what he actually does in-field and in relationships with women. The official principles -- much like those of any religion -- smell like roses. The actual shenanigans that go on are something else.

 

          Leo: The whole problem is that all you care about is your own success, which is very shortsighted and NOT aligned with true personal development. This is exactly the problem with PUAs

 

          Leo: The issue is not the principles the instructors proclaim, but the values of the community and the manner in which pickup is actually done in-field and the ACTUAL relationship (or lack thereof) that occurs between you and the girl. There is no genuine relating. There is you satisfying your self-agenda. That's about it.

 

          Leo is Same as RSD???

  • “…you have whole playlist with 11 videos about dating/relationships…is interesting, how you blame community, and at the same time you use their stuff to teach. Interesting, strange and hey - very hypocritical, don't you think so?”

          Leo: What I teach about attraction pales in comparison to the average narcissism, vitriol, and sexism of the community. And I don't teach it an ideological way.

 

          Leo: A technique for attraction is not the problem. The problem all the dogma and the ethos that comes with it. There's no problem with telling a guy, "Look a girl in the eyes when you talk to her." The problem is everything else.

 

          Leo: The issue is not the principles the instructors proclaim, but the values of the community and the manner in which pickup is actually done in-field and the ACTUAL relationship (or lack thereof) that occurs between you and the girl. There is no genuine relating. There is you satisfying your self-agenda. That's about it.

 

          Leo:  I don't think a guy is bad just because he goes out and talks to girls or even considers himself a PUA. It's all about HOW you're actually do it. HOW you're actually relating to women. HOW you're actually thinking about it all.

 

          Leo: You assume you understand this issue deeper than I do. And that would be a wrong assumption. Not bragging. Just telling you that I already took into account everything you mentioned and went BEYOND that.

          This video is way ADVANCED for some of you PUAs. Stop thinking you know pickup so well. You may know pickup, but you have no clue about the deep roots of human psychology, and neither to most pickup instructors. Being able to bang girls doesn't count for much in the end.

          Pickup is like a little pond. And I am trying to introduce you to the vast ocean of life. But you guys keep thinking you already got it all figured out.

          I coached people as life coaching clients, some of whom happened to be PUAs. Sometimes we had to undo limiting pickup mindsets that they absorbed from the community.

 

          Leo: There is a difference. This channel promotes a radical questioning and destruction of your own dogmas and beliefs about self and reality. PUA does NOT! PUA promotes a biased and inaccurate perspective of reality. Which is my primary problem with it. Like every ideology, PUA doesn't rigorously question itself. And it is neurotic no matter how much you deny it, make excuses for it, or badmouth me.

 

  • “Hey Leo, I have a friend/brother/huge pickup acquaintance who ended up leaving pickup and had similar realizations you had.”

          Leo: That's actually a common phenomenon. I've seen that before from various people who used to do pickup. They outgrow it and then voice a critique. But what the PUA community cleverly does is that it has a well-prepared set of attacks for anyone who does that. They either call him a failure, disgruntled, a beta chode, a sell-out, anti-PUA, or something like, “Well, we already knew banging a much of girls won't make you happy. Nothing new here guys. Business as usual." Because honestly, who wants to hear a critique when you just wanna get better with girls and the techniques are working?

          There is never a fair and open discussion about the problems with pick up values. Anyone who questions it is demonized or dismissed. Which is another thing I found to be immature about the community. A healthy community should be able to openly discuss its own blindspots.

 

 

          Y u so feminizi, Leo??

  • “But Leo, why are you picking on PUAs you screamy, potty mouth meanie?  Women can be shelfish too!!”

          Leo: It's not about the women at all. The harm is done to YOU, by YOU, when you hurt or manipulate others. This is all about YOU.

          Consider: If you have a psyche that likes to torture squirrels, sure, it's bad for the poor squirrel, but it's even more problematic for you.

          This video is aimed at fixing you. Not the squirrel. You're the neurotic one here, regardless of what the squirrel did.

          It doesn't matter what the women do. The ethos of the community -- its values -- are highly egotistical.

 

          Leo: Hehe, I wanted to give you guys a taste of your own medicine.   PUAs are not demons in my mind. I simply chose a caustic delivery because it felt warranted by all the unconsciousness and denial in the community.

 

          Leo: It's not an evil, but the way you manipulate women isn't healthy for you or your women. You are the one shooting yourself in the foot and suffering for it.

          So if you ever get fed up with that neurosis, maybe you'll decide to wise up and live with more integrity.

 

  • “But Leo, that so mean.  Why you call PUAs egotisticall?  Is not fare you name call such?  Maybeez go boink a goat.”

          Leo: Not really because egotistical is an accurate description of the PUAs level of consciousness. It's not evil or anything. It's just ignorance. Lots of egotistical people in the world. One just learns to accept it and have compassion for the ignorant.

 

  • “But Leo, women are manipulating poor little meeee when they, eat health, take regular showers and wear sexy liberarian workhorse clothese!”

         Leo: They do, but not in the same degree. It is not done in a ruthless and calculating way.

          Normal men and women manipulate each other a lot. PUA takes this already deeply neurotic dynamic and cranks it up 10 notches. Proof of this is that many PUAs are terrible in relationships. They simply can't do it. Of course not. That much is easily predictable. A narcissist ultimately ends up a sad loner as people fall out from his life. PUAs solution to this problem is to "just get more girls.”

 

          Leo: Sure women manipulate men. But not nearly to the same degree. Also the standard is higher for you because you should know better. The more conscious you are, the more responsibility you have.

          It's not a matter of tit-for-tat. This consciousness is for YOUR sake, not for theirs. YOU are the one being harmed most by your unconscious behaviors. PUA is the one who suffers most. He just doesn't realize it yet.

 

          Leo: Sure they are. But in a less harmful way and more socially acceptable ways.  Although makeup harms women's psyches too, just like pickup harms your psyche.

 

  • “But Leo, you just criticized PUAs.  Where’s your video criticizing feminism for hurting women?”

          Leo: Not interested because I don't see feminism as a problem. This whole idea that you somehow need to wage war on the opposite sex because things are somehow unfair is neurotic. This is part of the negative stereotype about women perpetuated within PUA.

          As a man in the 21st century, you got nothing to bitch about. All of that is just distraction from looking inward.

          What kind of man whines about women and demonizes women? A weak one.

 

  • “The analogy about pickup being the same as a giant group of women getting together and finding out how to marry a rich man and divorce him and take all his money... its not like they're feeling betrayed or tricked like a man who has his money taken away…”

          Leo: No, that is how YOU frame it because you're blind to the obvious collateral damage you cause.

          Women are not generally happy when you pump and dump them or build harems.

 

  • “Aren’t women’s magazines sexist against men and encourage women to marry rich?”

          Leo: Lol, women's magazines are mirrored by men's magazines and porn.

          And I don't think women's magazines are trying to get women to marry AND divorce rich men. Women's magazines are trying to help women find the man of their dreams, which is far less sleazy than pickup. Most women would much rather have a great man than his money.”

 

  • “Leo… I feel that it’s important to clear up what feminism is. The definition of feminism is ‘the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.’ Many people confuse the word feminism with the word misandry…”

          Leo: Perhaps. But pickup culture has it’s own characterization of feminism which is very different than that.

 

          Leo: I just meant that it [feminism] is similarly biased towards the female agenda as pickup is biased towards the male agenda. The focus on feminism is not so much balance as the correction of wrongs. Pickup is the same. Pickup is an over-reaction to the wrongs males perceive about the realities of dating.

 

          Leo: I reference feminism because PUAs hate hate hate hate it. And yet ironically, they are flip side of that coin.

 

  • “But Leo, aren’t you treating women like they’re stupid for getting manipulated by PUAs?”

          Leo: I wasn't treating women as stupid, I was treating PUAs as stupid, which is clearly the case from all the egoic reactions in the comments, and the failure to have any sense of the limits of pickup for your development.

 

          Pick Up is the Real Path to Enlightenment???

  • “game is what makes me be present and live the moment. No need for seminars or 1 hour meditation!”

          Leo:  That's not presence. That's excitement; ego titillation. Sex is the same thing. Drugs are the same thing.

          Eckhart Tolle speaks of a presence that most people will never understand because they are too busy titillating themselves, thinking they got the real deal.

 

          Leo: It's kinda like trying to become high consciousness through mindful stealing or mindful gluttony or mindful gambling. The activity itself is rather low-consciousness to begin with.

          You don't need tons of girls to be happy. It's the exact same problem businessmen have with chasing money. They get addicted to just doing more and more business because it stimulates the ego into believing it's really making progress when in fact it's not, it's just running in circles.

          This doesn't mean you can't do it at all. It just means you gotta be very careful about how you do it, and then get out before you get stuck.

 

  • “you said that pick.up limits my self-actualization, but does it limit my spiritual enlightment as well, or is uniquely for self-actualization?”

         Leo: Of course it limits enlightenment the most. Because pickup encourages you to chase sex for years and builds a false persona.

          Chances are that long before you get enlightened you will realize that having multiple girlfriends is unhealthy and motivated by dysfunction in you.

 

          Leo: Life will unfold however it will unfold for you. If you feel you need to be a criminal, be a criminal. You don’t really have a choice in the matter. Ego likes to think it has a choice, but it doesn’t.

          On the other hand, if life unfolds for you in the direction of higher consciousness, let that happen too. Perhaps you don’t need to stay in Orange as long as you think.

          Wisdom is having the intuition to drop all the baser desires and going straight for consciousness without all the bullshit detours. But sometimes you just can’t because you gotta burn through some karma.

 

          Leo: Give me the most advanced PUA you know, and I'll show you that he's actually behaving unconsciously, neurotically, egotistically, and holding himself back.

          It is simply a matter of fact that PUAs deceive themselves about what they are actually doing and over-estimate their level of consciousness.

          Btw, it is possible to disagree with a philosophy or set of ideas that a person holds without hating or demonizing the person.

 

          Leo: Most guys doing pickup are so lost in ego they will never recover. Just look at how they react to this video.

 

          But Leo, What Do I Do?

  • “You said what is important is the how you do it and why you do it. in this case what is the answer for those 2 in your opinion at least what you use for yourself.”

          Leo: Truth and consciousness are my main concerns. If you're gonna manipulate people, at the very least be honest with yourself that that's what you're doing. And be conscious of all the subtle ramifications this has for your life. Then the problem will tend to auto-correct. You will naturally start to drift away from behaviors that break your integrity.

          Also, very importantly, don't forget to be conscious of why you do pickup. It's NOT to get girls or to be successful. More fundamentally you do it to appease the ego and distract yourself from finding your authentic self.

          You can approach girls. Just be more freaking honest about it and cause less collateral damage.

          It is possible to do pickup with MUCH more responsibility than most PUAs do it with. I did pickup from the beginning with good bit of responsibility. Not perfect by any means, but way above average.

         Try this:

          - No lying

          - No cheating

          - 80% less manipulation

          - Less ego involved

          - Less treating women like pieces of dumb pieces of meat

          - Less breaking their hearts

          - Less PUA dogma

          - Actually care about the woman's agenda above your own

          - Don't pressure women for sex like a used car salesman

etc.

          There's no problem with any one particular technique, it's the egotistical and calculating way in which you do it that's the problem.

 

  • “But Leo, are you saying I can’t be authentic, honest and good with girls?”

          Leo: Nope, you CAN be authentic and truthful and get girls. But probably not in the same quantity as you can otherwise.

          There is a conflict of priorities for most PUAs. Truth is sacrificed in order to maximize lays.

          Truth is not the objective of an ego. Self-aggrandizement is. This becomes a problem as you try to develop to the highest levels.

 

  • “it hard to be an healthy individual without sex tho ;)”

          Leo: How did the human race have sex until the last 20 years of pickup?

          Well, see, it's all a matter of degree. If I shot a video saying, "Don't be a rapist." Some rapist would inevitably say, “But Leo! In your other video you said I can't be a healthy individual without sex tho. How else am I gonna get my needs met? I mean... I don't wanna be a chode, right? I'm only human and girls love sex and I'm growing myself so much! It's a whole new world!”

          The PUA community goes WAY beyond merely attracting girls. It is a whole attitude and philosophy of narcissism and extreme levels of manipulation that go way beyond what is required to get a girl attracted. It's like nuking an anthill.

 

          Leo: What matters is the way you go about fulfilling your lower needs. You can do it in a much more responsible and honest way.

          According to your logic, we can use Maslow's hierarchy to justify rape, murder, theft, manipulative advertising, environmental pollution, and government corruption. Hey, all those guys are just trying to meet their lower needs! What's the big deal?

 

  • “so whats the difference between being a pua, and wanting to better your skills with women? the intention?”

          Leo: Just be conscious of what you're doing and how you're doing it. Much of the theory you'll learn from PUA will be effective at attracting girls, but you will also get infected with bad beliefs and you'll be at risk of deepening your egotism.

          You will likely be unable to actually relate to women and have a deep relationship, let alone a successful marriage after PUA. You'll have to spend years unwiring bad beliefs about love and human relating because PUA fundamentally misunderstands these things. Like REALLY misunderstands these things! Really really badly! But it can get you laid and open the gateway for deeper development if you are wise enough to not get caught in PUA dogma.

 

  • “But Leo, why didn’t you talk about the positive effects of pickup?”

          Leo: There is no need for me to speak of the positive effects of pickup because ya'll PUAs do enough of that already. It would be like me telling fundamentalist Catholics the beauty of God, when my role is to point out that their priests are molesting children and hoarding money.

          This was an attempt to balance your perspective. And really, I didn't go nearly far enough to meet that goal. I could talk for days about the negatives of pickup and it would still not counter-balance the self-deluded infatuation that PUAs have with pickup.

 

          Leo:  It's kinda like necromancy. Lots of power, but it comes at a cost and ultimately backfires on the necromancer when he spawns a hell-demon that he himself cannot control.

 

          Miscellaneous Questions

  • “Please read Atlas Shrugged. It's likely you won't understand it…”

          Leo: Rand's understanding of psychology is fictional. Too many people take those books too seriously. A healthy ego is better than a broken ego, but still highly dysfunctional.

          PUAs like to use Rand's philosophy to buttress their narcissism. What I am talking about is a way deeper psychological truth of which Rand was unaware because of course she herself was a dogmatic narcissist.

          Keep in mind that her books were fiction. I wouldn't use them as a serious model to actually live life by.

 

  • “But Leo, you said PUA friendships are shallow because they’re narcissistic, selfish and flaky.  That they screw over men almost as easily as they do women!  Is that true about all of them?”

          Leo: It's a question of degree. I think PUAs -- given the ethos of the community -- learn to be more cold-hearted and calculating on average towards everyone, not just women, and this is then reflected in their relationships with friends. This is a generalization. You will certainly find exceptions to this trend.

 

          Leo: Fundamentally manipulation is a problem because it's based on a lie. The lie is that your self-agenda is somehow important and special and needs to be advanced at all costs.

 

  • “But Leo, how have you matured since doing the two episodes on How To Be A Man?”

          Leo: My views have certainly matured with all the consciousness work that I've been doing and learning about. The things I know now are much deeper than 95% of traditional self-improvement teachings/advice. And to get to these highest stages, you have to let go of many old beliefs and points of view, which I am actively doing and will continue to do. Many of my perspectives will change in the future.

          Masterful spiritual people don't make ego into an enemy. They accept egoic reactions as just another natural occurrence.

          The only issue I have is that pickup culture actively encourages and champions jerk behavior. RSD is no exception to this. I could cite dozens of examples. Should be pretty obvious to anyone who looks at this issue objectively.

Edited by FlyingLotus

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Posted

Thanks for this :)  Wow Leo has really changed his tune since then now he’s more pro-pickup than ever.. what happened.. 

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, FlyingLotus said:
  • so whats the difference between being a pua, and wanting to better your skills with women? the intention?”

          Leo: Just be conscious of what you're doing and how you're doing it. Much of the theory you'll learn from PUA will be effective at attracting girls, but you will also get infected with bad beliefs and you'll be at risk of deepening your egotism.

          You will likely be unable to actually relate to women and have a deep relationship, let alone a successful marriage after PUA. You'll have to spend years unwiring bad beliefs about love and human relating because PUA fundamentally misunderstands these things. Like REALLY misunderstands these things! Really really badly! But it can get you laid and open the gateway for deeper development if you are wise enough to not get caught in PUA dogma

??? 

Edited by Thunder Kiss

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Posted

40 minutes ago, Thunder Kiss said:

Thanks for this :)  Wow Leo has really changed his tune since then now he’s more pro-pickup than ever.. what happened.. 

I think there is a difference between doing pick up to get better at understanding, attracting and dating women, than entering the pua community and treating women like one use sex toys.

It's easy to get lost in the second category, but that doesn't mean the first one doesn't exist.

God is love

Whoever lives in love lives in God

And God in them

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Posted

 

2 hours ago, FlyingLotus said:

Leo: I got news for ya, you are not going to actually gain true confidence through pickup. That is surface level confidence. At the core you are still gonna be broken and fearful.

Wait what? ?
 

 

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Posted

depends on how you do it 

4 minutes ago, Pavement said:
2 hours ago, FlyingLotus said:

Leo: I got news for ya, you are not going to actually gain true confidence through pickup. That is surface level confidence. At the core you are still gonna be broken and fearful.

 

 

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Posted

It's interesting to read my own words from years ago. I was reacting to a lot of toxic stuff I saw within RSD at the time.

Admittedly, it's very tricky balancing between the dysfunctions men run into when they can't get laid vs the dysfunctions of being stuck in stage Orange.

I do see pickup as serving a need in men, but it comes with the cost of trapping men in a stage Orange level of development.

The thing is, the craving for sex has a way of warping one's entire worldview. And I am not immune to that dynamic. I have realized lately that part of my evolution and self-love involves fulfilling some of those base cravings rather than denying them. The trick is to not get lost in that. It's easy to create rationalizations for pickup and rationalizations against it.

From the man's POV, there is a problem that most women are not turned on by high consciousness behavior, there if one wants to attract attractive women one is forced to stoop to a lower level that causes the women to get raw attraction. It's a similar problem to selling high consciousness things to the general population. The general population won't buy it and you might go broke.

So there is a very challenging trade-off between sex vs consciousness.

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Posted (edited)

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

From the man's POV, there is a problem that most women are not turned on by high consciousness behavior, there if one wants to attract attractive women one is forced to stoop to a lower level that causes the women to get raw attraction. It's a similar problem to selling high consciousness things to the general population. The general population won't buy it and you might go broke.

I hear you, but you've managed to make it happen with your business even to the point of abundance  And actually, what makes you so popular is that you're selling to people authenticity and higher consciousness material.

I'm adamant that you could reiterate the same thing with your sex life. Obviously, not by clubbing in Vegas, but by meeting women in circle mirroring your interests. There should be plenty of them around where you live, or nearby in California.

At the end of the day, how attractive is really a woman for whom you've got to stoop to a lower level? Isn't this not compromising the piece you cherish most about yourself: truth and consciousness? And isn't it likely to cause a split in yourself, if you pursue :)  ? Self-love would be probably commanding you not to do so. Self-love would tell you to get yourself a woman who authentically resonates with you AND that you find attractive.  All the rest is actually coming out of scarcity.

 

Edited by Etherial Cat

Be cautious when a naked person offers you a t-shirt. - African proverb

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Posted

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I hear you, but you've managed to make it happen with your business even to the point of abundance  And actually, what makes you so popular is that you're selling to people authenticity and higher consciousness material.

But you're not taking into account that Actualized.org was only possible because I did a lot of manipulation within business & marketing for years beforehand. If I hadn't done that then Actualized.org wouldn't exist. So while it might seem like Leo is above petty business concerns, that's only thanks to the fact that I became financially independent early on through hardcore manipulation. Leo is not above survival. The only difference is that I converted base survival into something higher.

And even to this day, I have to care about dumb, petty business concerns because Actualized.org could die as a business any year. Business is a survival activity. It's not so easy. The less I focus on the survival aspect of Actualized.org the less money I earn. I've literally given up millions in potential profits in order to focus more on truth & consciousness. Doing so is not easy.

Quote

I'm adamant that you could reiterate the same thing with your sex life. Obviously, not by clubbing in Vegas, but by meeting women in circle mirroring your interests. There should be plenty of them around where you live, or nearby in California.

But I'm not interested in such circles.

Quote

At the end of the day, how attractive is really a woman for whom you've got to stoop to a lower level? Isn't this not compromising the piece you cherish most about yourself: truth and consciousness?

Yes, of course. If I wanted to maximize my truth and consciousness I would not have sex or date at all.

And if I wanted to maximize truth and consciousness I would not run a business at all.

I would go live in a cave and stop teaching anyone. And maybe some day I will just do that. And then no one will have anything to complain about.

To engage in survival is to stoop to a lower level. The trick is finding the right level to stoop to.

I have already given up a lot of sex in order to create Actualized.org. However, I have my limits to how much I am willing to give up. In a sense, the amount of sex I gave up to create Actualized.org has left me a bit traumatized.

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I hear you, but you've managed to make it happen with your business even to the point of abundance  And actually, what makes you so popular is that you're selling to people authenticity and higher consciousness material.

I'm adamant that you could reiterate the same thing with your sex life. Obviously, not by clubbing in Vegas, but by meeting women in circle mirroring your interests. There should be plenty of them around where you live, or nearby in California.

At the end of the day, how attractive is really a woman for whom you've got to stoop to a lower level? Isn't this not compromising the piece you cherish most about yourself: truth and consciousness? And isn't it likely to cause a split in yourself, if you pursue :)  ? Self-love would be probably commanding you not to do so. Self-love would tell you to get yourself a woman who authentically resonates with you AND that you find attractive.  All the rest is actually coming out of scarcity.

 

1 million subscribers out of 2.29 billion YouTube users. That's a 0.043% attraction rate. And I'm sure some of them are there for the stage Orange stuff only.

Now, apply that rate to real life. If Las Vegas has 2.6 million people, that makes Leo's chances of authentic attraction very small. Only 1135 people from all the 2.6 millions.

Let's be optimistic and assume that half of them are women between 20 and 30 years old. That's like 550 woman. And we haven't yet touched upon sexual attraction. We've only covered similar interests.

Sorry for the all math though. You probably hate me now even more xD9_9

Edited by Gesundheit2

Foolish until proven other-wise ;)

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Posted (edited)

Leo also had these additional points to make that I forgot to include.

_________________

     Leo: This video was addressing irresponsible and egotistical PUA behavior. Which has nothing to do with sex and dating itself. The two can be separated.

  • “But Leo…Do I have to worry about what everyone’s agenda is before thinking about mine?  That is how I used to be and I suffered big time. Now I am just being authentic and honest about how I feel.”

     Leo: No, you actually only need to take responsibility for yourself. But FULLY and consciously. << This is NOT the same as selfishness.

 

     More Suggestions By Leo:

     IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ:

     You’re probably wondering at this point… “Okay, Leo! Okay! What can I actually do about this? Should I quit pickup entirely? How am I supposed to get better with girls?!!!!”

     If you suck with girls, the reality is that you need to approach them to get better. That said, you can do so in a MUCH more responsible way than the PUA community would suggest.

    Try the following practical changes to your game:

  • Be honest with yourself that you are manipulating when you are
  • Notice how much you manipulate via text
  • Notice how much you manipulate for sex itself
  • Stop being so calculating
  • Start caring about the woman’s agenda above your own
  • Stop pressuring women for sex like a used car salesman
  • Stop telling women downright lies, including little lies like, “Oh, we’re just going to my house to watch TV.”
  • Reduce your manipulation by 80%
  • Stop exaggerating about yourself and how good/cool you are
  • Stop drinking the PUA community dogma/cool-aid
  • Stop gossiping so much with your PUA buddies about PUA dogma
  • Stop demonizing “nice guys” and “chodes”
  • Stop using pickup lines (if you still are)
  • Stop judging women
  • Stop blaming women for not liking you or sleeping with you
  • Stop calling women sluts, whores, bitches, cunts, etc.
  • Stop perpetuating the myth that women are disloyal and will cheat easily
  • Be honest with women that you do pickup and why you got into it
  • Stop cheating on women
  • Stop withholding important information from women (lying by omission)
  • Stop building harems and burning through women
  • Take measures to minimize emotional collateral damage to women. Don’t toy with their emotions
  • Respect women more
  • Stop only doing one-night-stands and stop trying to get your lay count up
  • Stop showing off pictures of your girls to other guys to brag
  • Stop gloating about how many women you’ve been with
  • Stop hitting on women who have boyfriends or husbands
  • Don’t dump women in a cruel way
  • Try actually communicating with your woman and building an authentic honest relationship
  • Try being interested in women beyond sex
  • Stop pushing women’s emotional hot-buttons
  • Stop with the fake emotionality and drama
  • Exhibit more empathy!
  • Become an advocate for responsible pickup and set a good example for the community by embodying higher consciousness values
  • Etc.

     The bottom line is, there are lots of way to do pickup more responsibly and more consciously. You know… be more like a human and less like a horny used car salesman.  Will this diminish your results? Of course it will! That’s the cost of doing honest business!  Your integrity and self-actualization, though, will improve. I promise!  And stop bullshitting yourself! You ARE a fucking ego-maniac. This is just a band-aid on a much bigger issue that we’ll need to work on over the years. But at least it’s a start!

 

ADDITIONAL POINTS ABOUT RSD:

     Many of you follow RSD content and philosophy. You’re probably wondering, “Does what Leo say apply to RSD?”

     Yes! It certainly does. I see RSD as a community of guys. This community has a set of common values and ethos. These values are what I'm critiquing because these values (generally speaking) are egotistical, narcissistic, and immature.

  • Does this mean I hate RSD? No.
  • Do I have a personal dislike for RSD instructors? No. Some of them are very inspiring. And I've met them all in-person.
  • Does this mean everything in RSD is evil? No.
  • Does this mean every single one of the RSD values is immature? No.
  • Does this mean that RSD doesn’t have some good personal development ideas and techniques? No.

     Fundamentally what I'm advocating is a raising of the values of the community, more focus put on ethics, and more responsibility and empathy.

     Player with a golden heart anyone? 

Edited by FlyingLotus

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Posted (edited)

@FlyingLotus are all those points said by Leo in a video or are those your own points. If it's by Leo then which video? 

I'm talking about the points under practical changes to game? 

 

Edited by Preety_India

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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Posted

8 minutes ago, FlyingLotus said:

Try the following practical changes to your game:

  • Be honest with yourself that you are manipulating when you are
  • Notice how much you manipulate via text
  • Notice how much you manipulate for sex itself
  • Stop being so calculating
  • Start caring about the woman’s agenda above your own
  • Stop pressuring women for sex like a used car salesman
  • Stop telling women downright lies, including little lies like, “Oh, we’re just going to my house to watch TV.”
  • Reduce your manipulation by 80%
  • Stop exaggerating about yourself and how good/cool you are
  • Stop drinking the PUA community dogma/cool-aid
  • Stop gossiping so much with your PUA buddies about PUA dogma
  • Stop demonizing “nice guys” and “chodes”
  • Stop using pickup lines (if you still are)
  • Stop judging women
  • Stop blaming women for not liking you or sleeping with you
  • Stop calling women sluts, whores, bitches, cunts, etc.
  • Stop perpetuating the myth that women are disloyal and will cheat easily
  • Be honest with women that you do pickup and why you got into it
  • Stop cheating on women
  • Stop withholding important information from women (lying by omission)
  • Stop building harems and burning through women
  • Take measures to minimize emotional collateral damage to women. Don’t toy with their emotions
  • Respect women more
  • Stop only doing one-night-stands and stop trying to get your lay count up
  • Stop showing off pictures of your girls to other guys to brag
  • Stop gloating about how many women you’ve been with
  • Stop hitting on women who have boyfriends or husbands
  • Don’t dump women in a cruel way
  • Try actually communicating with your woman and building an authentic honest relationship
  • Try being interested in women beyond sex
  • Stop pushing women’s emotional hot-buttons
  • Stop with the fake emotionality and drama
  • Exhibit more empathy!
  • Become an advocate for responsible pickup and set a good example for the community by embodying higher consciousness values
  • Etc.

    

 

Are these said by Leo? 

 

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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Posted (edited)

They're Leo's points, for sure :).  

I wish I had come up with them!

You can find them in the comments section here: on Actualized.org.

They're also in the Youtube comments, but it takes forever to load.

Edited by FlyingLotus

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@FlyingLotus you should have added - "stop calling nice guys and gentlemen - beta." 

 

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

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Posted (edited)

Oh, ahh I see. But that's the older Leo. 

That's why I was wondering, how come. O.o

Edited by Preety_India

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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Posted (edited)

Leo mentioned he'll be discussing the ethics of pickup in this week's episode.  It'll be interesting to hear what he has to say! 

Edited by FlyingLotus

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Well let's see what the new Leo has got to say. Will watch. :ph34r:

 

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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