Are people constantly making stuff up?

[Tyler Durden]

Whenever people tell me about stuff that wasn't in my direct experience, I feel like they are making it up on the spot. I don't think that they're doing it on purpose, they're probably just programmed to act that way.

Having that in mind, how can I trust anyone? Is there any difference between being told a lie or the truth?

[Tim R]

What do you mean exactly? Could you give an example? 

[Vibroverse]

I think that's a good awareness, but aren't you also making stuff up? Are you sure that you really have a real history yourself, including your experiences with those people and their stories? Are you sure that you are not making it up now?

[Tyler Durden]

13 minutes ago, Tim R said:

What do you mean exactly? Could you give an example? 

When people tell my about their vacation, day on work, night dreams, sexual experiences, etc. All the stuff that I didn't witness.

11 minutes ago, Vibroverse said:

I think that's a good awareness, but aren't you also making stuff up? Are you sure that you really have a real history yourself, including your experiences with those people and their stories? Are you sure that you are not making it up now?

Interesting perspective. So even I'm making stuff up when I talk about stuff that I experienced in my direct experience?

[Tim R]

Ok I think you're projecting. If I told you: "I was going for a walk today", would you think I made that up? 

[aetheroar]

Absolutely no part of what someone tells you using words is real. They don’t even know about their walk beyond the conceptual framework they thought of during it. Every description of reality is incomplete because the infinite can not be put into words. The unreal includes: what someone told you they did, what they thought was happening, who they think they were/are, who they think you were/are, who you think they were/are, what you’re reading right now, what you read five seconds ago, etc.

”I went for a walk” captures absolutely 0% of what happened. It’s not even comparable to the thought of the actual occurrence of said walk. The idea of “I went for a walk” is an idea occuring right now, with no basis in direct experience whatsoever.

I have never gone anywhere because I am nowhere.

What they tell you is neither true nor a lie. The words are really happening, but there’s nothing there...

Something appeared to happen, a thought arose, they identified with the thought, spoke something about it because they think they can find more information by replaying the memory. Then they are missing the fact that the information that came from the walk is actually the present moment.

They really think they took a walk, OR they are straight up lying because they aren’t ready to recognize Truth. If you are present and take in the essence of what they are saying, you may realize that they don’t even know the distinction between Truth and falsity. If you think they can speak Truth, you are also unaware of that distinction. They are speaking, that is Truth. Beyond that, there’s the essence of what they are trying to share, of which they aren’t even aware of the reason behind. If they were, they would simply sit in loving presence with you.

”I went for a walk today” means “I love you”

[Tyler Durden]

@Tim R Normally, I would assume that you're telling the truth because nobody would lie about that. But when I think about it, I don't have any evidence that you really went for a walk except your word. That is only a belief, it's not something I directly experienced.

 

[Tim R]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I don't have any evidence that you really went for a walk except your word. That is only a belief, it's not something I directly experienced.

Fair enough. Now the question is: so what? Doubting everything that people say makes you go crazy. 

[Vibroverse]

I think we don't, yet, understand what "everything is consciousness, everything is nothing" really means at all, at all, at all, kinda like not even close. The you you believe you are is an image that is made of consciousness, a projection of consciousness, that is literally made of imagination. The next moment you can stop imagining you are a human and start to imagine being a cat, completely forgetting that you ever were a human.

Everything is consciousness and your experiences and your memories and all of that is consciousness making up that stuff in the moment, and in the next moment it begins to dream something else, and in the next moment it begins to dream something else, and so forth.

If you wake up you understand that your socalled direct experience, if you mean the contents of your experience like your personality and memories and stuff you are seeing around you an so forth also are stuff you're making up, in this moment, out of, literally, nothing, of that which is, literally, formless pure awareness. 

And, in that sense, of course they are making it all up, just like you, right now, are making up a memory with those people, and making up the imagination that you are reading this now. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Vibroverse

[Carl-Richard]

19 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

@Tim R Normally, I would assume that you're telling the truth because nobody would lie about that. But when I think about it, I don't have any evidence that you really went for a walk except your word. That is only a belief, it's not something I directly experienced.

Communication and belief is pragmatic. It helps you to complete tasks so that you can survive. Certainty is a luxury. If you're distrusting what people say to the point that you dismiss all external information and let none of it inform your actions, then you're missing the point.

[Agoy]

Seems like you’ve developed an attachment to certainty

I think if you make peace with the fact that you will always be told things that you can’t verify through direct experience, and that these things can often still be true, then you’ll learn to be okay with it

[Mason Riggle]

E c@Tyler Durden degrees of certainty. 

There's only 1 thing I am absolutely certain of.. direct experience.. there seems to be something occurring, rather than nothing.  

It's possible that I am totally confused about 'the contents of experience'.. experience may be illusion, or hallucination, or dream, for example.

However, between 100% certain, and 0% certain, there seem to be degrees of certainty by which I calibrate my beliefs and behaviors. 

For example, if you tell me that your car is parked in your garage, I really can't be sure of this. But, based on experience, cars seem to be a thing, garages seem to be a thing, and it seems plausible that you might possess one and have it parked in your garage, and so I'm inclined to have a high degree of certainty about this, yet still less than 100%. 

If, on the other hand, you tell me that you have a pet T-Rex that speaks Mandarin Chinese in your pocket, because this does not match up with experience, I will have a very low degree of certainty. Basically I won't believe you. 

We don't choose what to believe.  We believe whatever we find compelling to believe, and we don't choose what we find to be sufficiently compelling. 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Whenever people tell me about stuff that wasn't in my direct experience, I feel like they are making it up on the spot. I don't think that they're doing it on purpose, they're probably just programmed to act that way.

Maybe they’re just enjoying sharing. 

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Having that in mind, how can I trust anyone? Is there any difference between being told a lie or the truth?

You’re the truth. Remember? 

[Inliytened1]

@Tyler Durden to me it seems your conflating the Absolute with the relative.  Its as if you are lucid in a dream and then worrying that one of the dream characters isn't real..  For example..Absolutely speaking this is a dream- outside of your direct experience or direct consciousness, nothing exists.  There is nothing independent of consciousness.  But while in the dream you don't think of it that way because your are within the dream and staying within that context.  The dream creates the illusion of an objective reality.  So staying within the context of the dream, your friend DID take a walk.  Your parents ARE in their house right now watching TV..etc etc.

[Tyler Durden]

@Tim R Yeah, I guess for the sake of staying sane, it's better to accept things the way they are presented.

@Carl-Richard Yes, that's a survival mechanism, too much doubt isn't good.

@Inliytened1 So I should just go with the flow? Live according with dream rules without questioning them too much?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Tyler Durden

[Inliytened1]

29 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

 

@Inliytened1 So I should just go with the flow? Live according with dream rules without questioning them too much?

If you haven't become directly conscious of Truth then I would say question the heck out of the dream.  Meditate, self inquiry, all of it.  But if you have broken out of this dream then  what else is there to do but play within its context?  but also, now a lucidity or meta awareness is also available.

[Nos7algiK]

Simply put there is no experience behind the experiences that you are told. The experience of listening to the experience is the direct experience itself. If someone tells you about a dog then your experience is that of being told about a dog. Nothing exists outside of this notion but your own imagination if you would think about them seeing a dog. That is it, that is all there is. 

Now if your mind wished to latch on or conceptualize a grander narrative behind them seeing a dog then you could ask them questions such as the color of the dog or breed. These will  be reciprocated in a way that conforms to your general belief system of what seeing a dog could potentially be like. Reality will reflect this back to you through the perception of the words of another in order for you to feel more grounded or keep your paradigms of belief in check. But, there is nor ever was a they "actually" seeing a dog. But, again there "actually" is you are being told a story about a dog.

An issue can arise though when we start to realize that someone's stories never actually happened. But, it's not because it in itself is scary or hard to process. But, rather our mind selectively is pointing at what not to believe actually happened rather than seeing the full picture at once and accepting that.

It's best to go with the dream rather than questioning the actuality of what isn't present in the dream. Accept the story of a dog as truth rather than a Lie by the universe to deceive you. If we were to only look at the deceptions, there would be no place we wouldn't find them.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Nos7algiK

[Tyler Durden]

@Inliytened1 What do you mean by lucidity and meta awareness? Some type of control over the dream?

@Nos7algiK Excellent explanation. I was thinking something similar along those lines but you put it real nicely into words. Your conclusion is also on point because God created this reality through deception of itself, otherwise it wouldn't work at all. Too much doubt and illusion would shatter.